Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter After Hitting, Killing Pedestrian

[Major Tom]

If you read the thread you will see that I have also said that drivers do not have a defence either. My, consistent, argument is that cyclists must be prepared to defend their actions, and to take the consequences of their actions.

this title wasn't loaded then:

Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter After Hitting, Killing Pedestrian

 

[parallelepipete]

this title wasn't loaded then:

Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter After Hitting, Killing Pedestrian

To be fair to dessiato, I think that was the headline of the news article?

 

[dessiato]

this title wasn't loaded then:

Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter After Hitting, Killing Pedestrian

Sorry Major Tom, but the title has always been the same, I took it directly from Local6, and quoted the article as the original post. If the title has been changed it is without my knowledge, and it comes up on my screen as the title I originaly posted.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Motorists, IME, routinely flout the law and account for hundreds of deaths every year through their reckkless actions.

It is time that motorists were reminded that they too must account for their actions.

would galdy see your comparative statistics between car drivers who flout the law and cyclists...

It's about time that all road users were reminded that they are accountable for their actions.

you see the difference between your statement and mine, your's is borne from your anti car prejudices which you incandesently display time and time again... mine is as a concered road user who recognises that this country has some of the poorest road craft standards in europe...

but hey let's single one group out for bilious prejudical bashing rather than lookin at the collective whole... that way we can scape goatt and smugly sit there saying nuffink to do with me guv'nor... nice attidude...

 

[Major Tom]

Sorry Major Tom, but the title has always been the same, I took it directly from Local6, and quoted the article as the original post. If the title has been changed it is without my knowledge, and it comes up on my screen as the title I originaly posted.

I meant loaded, as in biased.

Not sure what you thought I meant.

 

[Hollis]

has some of the poorest road craft standards in europe...

Haha.. never mind about death and injury!! Lets concentrate on 'road craft'.

 

[MikeMcc]

Motorists, IME, routinely flout the law and account for hundreds of deaths every year through their reckkless actions.

It is time that motorists were reminded that they too must account for their actions.

I think the difference being that I've seen cyclists regularly committing offenses where car drivers, in general, wouldn't or couldn't do so. I don't think anyone is condoning the actions of either brand of road user.

 

[Major Tom]

would galdy see your comparative statistics between car drivers who flout the law and cyclists...

It's about time that all road users were reminded that they are accountable for their actions.

so what do we do? Take action to deal with the thousands killed very year, and the main cause of that, or fart about saying oh no we can't persecute motorists cos other wise those darn cyclists are getting away with it.

To be honest I don't give a fuck what you do about poor cyclists, they do not really impinge upon my life in any important way.

But I do give a fuck if the current negative attiutde from police who don;t actually know the law that well, who sometimes feel like harrassing a safe cyclist, is stepped up in the name of "cracking down on cyclists".

Especially so since most cyclists i know feel that we have no legal protection from other road users, since the police won't accept crimes we report, and won't act when they see an unsafe situation, except, sometimes, to threaten to arrest the cyclist

 

[dessiato]

would galdy see your comparative statistics between car drivers who flout the law and cyclists...

It's about time that all road users were reminded that they are accountable for their actions.

you see the difference between your statement and mine, your's is borne from your anti car prejudices which you incandesently display time and time again... mine is as a concered road user who recognises that this country has some of the poorest road craft standards in europe...

but hey let's single one group out for bilious prejudical bashing rather than lookin at the collective whole... that way we can scape goatt and smugly sit there saying nuffink to do with me guv'nor... nice attidude...

I am not anti car, as your post says, I accept much of your post. My assertion has consistently been that reckless/dangerous cyclists should bear the consequences of their actions. I have repeatedly said that I do not exclude motorists from this idea.

 

[Major Tom]

I am not anti car, as your post says, I accept much of your post. My assertion has consistently been that reckless/dangerous cyclists should bear the consequences of their actions. I have repeatedly said that I do not exclude motorists from this idea.

so what do we do? Take action to deal with the thousands killed very year, and the main cause of that, or fart about saying oh no we can't persecute motorists cos other wise those darn cyclists are getting away with it.

 

[MikeMcc]

Do you really mean ALL.

I use the A20 to Mottingham most days, and on the homeword journey its uphill, so i don;t get a lot of speed up, there are drains, bits of trees, dead animals and cats eyes in the side of the road I use. This road is also beloved of boy racers who get up to a whopping 60 or 70 mph, before slamming the anchors on at the speed camera, and then accelerating again. The combination of low speed, obstacles on the road, and complete wankers in vehicles makes this very dangerous for me. I've only been hit once on this road, but that was enough for me to make an important decision.

In the other direction where I get a good speed up I have no problem getting a good road position and keeping my space on the road. Most people pull into the other lane to overtake me; and its too early for boyracers in the morning; and traffic is usually much slower, I can end up being as fast or faster than the flow of traffic.

Considering that there is a nice wide pavement on either side of this road, never used as far as I can tell, by pedestrians, which the councils concerned refuse to reclassify to shared use cycle path (don;t know why) - then it seems obvious to me that I should cycle on the pavement on this route.

I hurt no-one. I stay alive.

I now that road and fully agree. The only bit of the pavement that gets regular use is by the foot-bridge crossing the railway line.

 

[Major Tom]

I now that road and fully agree. The only bit of the pavement that gets regular use is by the foot-bridge crossing the railway line.

And I'm always back on the road again by then. the pavement is hardly built for cycling on - its a pain, and i'd prefer not to be there.

 

[WasGeri]

What about the people the cyclists run down?

What about the fucking pedestrians who injure cyclists with their reckless behavour?

I have been cycling for over 30 years and I've never hit anyone - however, I have been injured by fuckwits stepping off into my path without looking causing me to brake sharply and injure myself.

 

[Major Tom]

What about the fucking pedestrians who injure cyclists with their reckless behavour?

I have been cycling for over 30 years and I've never hit anyone - however, I have been injured by fuckwits stepping off into my path without looking causing me to brake sharply and injure myself.

I agree entirely - however I'm not sure the argument is going to go down to well on this thread.

Anyway - I'm a fuckwitted ped sometimes - but at least i always apologise instead of going into one as some do.

 

[dessiato]

so what do we do? Take action to deal with the thousands killed very year, and the main cause of that, or fart about saying oh no we can't persecute motorists cos other wise those darn cyclists are getting away with it.

Please re-read what I've been saying. I have not said do not prosecute (I assume you mean this rather than persecute) motorists. Indeed you will see that I have said, repeatedly, that reckless/dangerous riding/driving is indefensible. I stand by that 100%.

Yes I am, now, a leisure cyclist. Yes I do drive. Neither makes me infallible. I keep repeating this: be prepared to take responsibility for your actions.
From earlier post: My point is 'A car and a bicycle are both vehicles and if they are operated in a way that could be criminal, then charges are filed equally in both situations' as said in the original post.

 

[Major Tom]

Please re-read what I've been saying. I have not said do not prosecute (I assume you mean this rather than persecute) motorists. Indeed you will see that I have said, repeatedly, that reckless/dangerous riding/driving is indefensible. I stand by that 100%.

Yes I am, now, a leisure cyclist. Yes I do drive. Neither makes me infallible. I keep repeating this: be prepared to take responsibility for your actions.
From earlier post: My point is 'A car and a bicycle are both vehicles and if they are operated in a way that could be criminal, then charges are filed equally in both situations' as said in the original post.

not sure what you're trying to get at here, though.

I don;t believe that either classes of road users are perfect. I know that there are some fuckwitted people on bikes and equally in cars.

But I believe that motorists provide much more of a risk to othe road users than cyclists. Statistics bear me out here.

So if road users are taking responsiblity for thier actions, then surely there's a lot more responsiblity to be takien when you get behind the wheels of a car than when you get on a bike?

Also - there are stretches of road in London where EVERY car is breaking the speed limit and certain junctions where EVERY time the lights change a motorist jumps the the lights. This implies that poor driving is a bit more widespread than just a minority. Unlike cyclists - where a small but annoying minority does cause problems.

But - above and beyond I don;t agree with this distinction between cyclists and motorists and peds. I'm all three - a ped first, then a cyclist, then a motorist. Surely an arsehole in a car then remains an arsehole on a bike, or even on his own two feet. Difference is, I'd rather he was on a bike than driving a car. Or a bus.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Haha.. never mind about death and injury!! Lets concentrate on 'road craft'.

erm good road craft would normally precede a fall in deaths and injury by making the users more aware of their surrondings...

clearly you know little on the subject as evidenced by your post...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

so what do we do? Take action to deal with the thousands killed very year, and the main cause of that, or fart about saying oh no we can't persecute motorists cos other wise those darn cyclists are getting away with it.

To be honest I don't give a fuck what you do about poor cyclists, they do not really impinge upon my life in any important way.

But I do give a fuck if the current negative attiutde from police who don;t actually know the law that well, who sometimes feel like harrassing a safe cyclist, is stepped up in the name of "cracking down on cyclists".

Especially so since most cyclists i know feel that we have no legal protection from other road users, since the police won't accept crimes we report, and won't act when they see an unsafe situation, except, sometimes, to threaten to arrest the cyclist

i'd like to see the vechile test improved greatly and see more road craft included rather than the current get you through your first few months of driving til you pass type lessons... thing's like manditory advance driving skills before you can drive anythign above a shopping trolly would be good...

thing's like higher insurance premiums for just passed drivers. more pulling over of bad drivers rather than a reliance on secondary systems like speed cameras bus lane cameras city car size (engine and physical) limits, progressive taxation based on engine size... money pumped into real cycle lanes not narrowed roads with abit of green paint (seperate cycle lanes would afford cycleists some level of protection at least.) manditory retesting ever 10 years...

 

[Hollis]

erm good road craft would normally precede a fall in deaths and injury by making the users more aware of their surrondings...

clearly you know little on the subject as evidenced by your post...

Haha..

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I am not anti car, as your post says, I accept much of your post. My assertion has consistently been that reckless/dangerous cyclists should bear the consequences of their actions. I have repeatedly said that I do not exclude motorists from this idea.

i haven't said you are anti car i was quoting the editor unless theres something you'd like to tell up dessiato...

all road users means all road users should bear the full responiblity for there actions

 

[Major Tom]

money pumped into real cycle lanes not narrowed roads with abit of green paint (seperate cycle lanes would afford cycleists some level of protection at least.) manditory retesting ever 10 years...

i was with you up till here. I find seperate cycle lanes unusable, they get covered in glass, never get cleaned, cars park on them, people walk along them, wait for buses on them, etc. They also get built to a lower standard then roads, meaning potholes, bumps etc. slowing cyclists down, when we should be allowing them to go as fast as possible. And it puts us closer to peds, and possible accidents.

I feel much safer on the road.

I also worry that too many cycle lanes and we will lose our right to use the roads. Already I get arseholes running me off the road, and then pointing to the (unusable) cycle lane to my left to justify their actions.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Haha..

so you're saying it wouldn't

care to evidence this ...

 

[gaijingirl]

I think the difference being that I've seen cyclists regularly committing offenses where car drivers, in general, wouldn't or couldn't do so. I don't think anyone is condoning the actions of either brand of road user.

I easily see as many car drivers driving whilst talking on their mobile phone as cyclists breaking red lights... they may not be as visible unless you take the time to look at them... I have to because I'm the one they're gonna mow down in their absent mindedness...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i was with you up till here. I find seperate cycle lanes unsuable, they get covered in glass, never cleaned, cars parked on them, people walk along them, wait for buses on them, etc.

I also worry that too many cycle lanes and we will lose our right to use the roads. Already I get arseholes running me off the road, and then pointing to the (unusable) cycle lane to my left to justify their actiosn.

the first point should be delt with int he same way that the roads are ie the should be swept regularlly (theo edges of roads are normally full of shit too though...)

the second point is just nonsense wanker ijets will use anything to excuse their wanker actions you might as well say that you'd liek to see and end to white line's on roads cos wankers use the to justify jumping pedestrain crossings...

the fact that wankers use summit as a justification for there actions won't hold up in court along with some of the other actions i mentioned then i see no reason why said wanker should then be pulled up for their behaviour and prolly banned equally if they were forced to restest every ten years then their standard of driving would hopefully not fall to such a limit where they would be that much of a wanker in the first place...

 

[Major Tom]

the first point should be delt with int he same way that the roads are ie the should be swept regularlly (theo edges of roads are normally full of shit too though...)

the second point is just nonsense wanker ijets will use anything to excuse their wanker actions you might as well say that you'd liek to see and end to white line's on roads cos wankers use the to justify jumping pedestrain crossings...

the fact that wankers use summit as a justification for there actions won't hold up in court along with some of the other actions i mentioned then i see no reason why said wanker should then be pulled up for their behaviour and prolly banned equally if they were forced to restest every ten years then their standard of driving would hopefully not fall to such a limit where they would be that much of a wanker in the first place...

you're naive aren't you? I had to stop using a route through Wandsworth because of the harrassment I got from motorists who thought I should be using the cycle lanes there.

How do you think any of this will get to a court of law, and what difference do you think this will make to real life?

when on the road, I am able to cycle a little way out to avoid any debris, on the bit of the road that gets swept by car tyres. I can't do that on a cycle lane, and will only get endless punctures.

who will you get to clean the cycle lanes, and how will it be paid for. Higher council tax? Wonderful! I'd rather have my money in my pocket thankyou.

 

[Hollis]

would galdy see your comparative statistics between car drivers who flout the law and cyclists...

It's about time that all road users were reminded that they are accountable for their actions.

you see the difference between your statement and mine, your's is borne from your anti car prejudices which you incandesently display time and time again... mine is as a concered road user who recognises that this country has some of the poorest road craft standards in europe...

but hey let's single one group out for bilious prejudical bashing rather than lookin at the collective whole... that way we can scape goatt and smugly sit there saying nuffink to do with me guv'nor... nice attidude...

Yes - go back to this post. You empahsise the relative statistics of cyclists and car drivers who 'flout the law'. I have no idea. What I do know is the relative dangers of each group doing so.. or the consequences of either group engaging in reckless cycling/driving within the law.

Its not prejudical to target car drivers. They're in charge of a far more dangerous piece of equipement than either cyclists or pedestrians..and the consequences of abuse are far more lethal. Therefore the empahsis has to be on regulating their behaviour.

You do know the relative deaths per road mile travelled between cars and cyclists?

Of course cyclists and pedestrians need to know how to use the roads safetly, but you'll find by far the biggest impact will result from changes in driver behaviour.

 

[gaijingirl]

From the ONS... Passenger death rates: by mode of transport

The pedestrians, cyclists and motorcylist rates are so much higher than car or van drivers...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes - go back to this post. You empahsise the relative statistics of cyclists and car drivers who 'flout the law'. I have no idea. What I do know is the relative dangers of each group doing so.. or the consequences of either group engaging in reckless cycling/driving within the law.

Its not prejudical to target car drivers. They're in charge of a far more dangerous piece of equipement than either cyclists or pedestrians..and the consequences of abuse are far more lethal. Therefore the empahsis has to be on regulating their behaviour.

You do know the relative deaths per road mile travelled between cars and cyclists?

Of course cyclists and pedestrians need to know how to use the roads safetly, but you'll find by far the biggest impact will result from changes in driver behaviour.

the bit in bold is called road craft you muppet.

 

[Hollis]

Ah.. so its okay to be target, err. be prejudicial ( ) towards this group.. ?



<good statistics btw.. this is why I stopped cycling in London. Not just paranoia >

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

From the ONS... Passenger death rates: by mode of transport

The pedestrians, cyclists and motorcylist rates are so much higher than car or van drivers...

sorry did i ask for death figures ...

i asked for a relaibe source of figures to back up the editors claim of routinely flouting of the law...

if you are intending to change the topic of discussion to ground you feel you can argue then that's fine but don't expect that it will result in responses you'll like...