Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide bombing

[Detroit City]

The 'War on Terror' not having any role to play then?

of course it is but when the dust settles the Pakistani people have to learn to take care of themselves and their own nation. And at present they are not doing that and I would say that historically they have been quite poor at it.

 

[CyberRose]

What i noticed on the news today was that all the reports were shying away from the idea that Musharef and/or elements of ISI were either directly reponsible or had a significent degree of invovlement in the assasination - despite the fact that many of Bhutto's supporters were very loundly making exaclty that accusation and that its an entirely reasonable scenario. At the same time there was pretty much unquestioning acceptance of the Pakistani government line that it was Al Q wot did it.

Reminds me of the simialr, almost farcical, reluctance of the media to point the finger at Putin and co after the Litvinenko murder.

Here ya go!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7163286.stm

 

[CyberRose]

The mystery deepens!

Pakistani journalist, Syed Saleem Shahzad, claims al-Qaida's leader in Afghanistan, Egyptian Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid, phoned him and claimed responsibility for the attack (link)

However, the Pakistani government are saying they know nothing of this (link) and are instead blaming a man named Baitullah Mehsud, who they claim is an al-Qaida leader (this being the main story being reported around the world)

This is more dodgy than Carlos Tevez's transfer to Man Utd...

 

[CyberRose]

And here's the transcript released by the Pakistani authorities that implicates Baitullah Mehsud...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071228..._transcript;_ylt=AmuqN2XYIl0PUq8Rf8MaRehvaA8F

Please note that Mehsud is not referred to by name, but is definately the other guy on the phone, because the 2nd man refers to "Emir Sahib", and the article says that that refers to Mehsud...

 

[mears]

She was everything that Al-Q, the Taliban & the rest of the Islamic fundies despise..

Liberal, secular & female..

Exactly, but that is not a popular theme around here...

I find it breathtaking most on this thread shun from even mentioning Islamic radicalism and its possible (and I believe probable) complicity in Bhuttos demise. The killing of Danny Pearl and French aid workers in Pakistan is a testament to their deeds, and the pattern of suicide attacks is a good indicator of their possible guilt.

In all likelihood Pakistan is suffering its own form of blowback, supporting extremeism in Afghanistan and within Pakistan (for political reasons) is coming back to haunt the elites.

In any case you can't pretend that these radical elements of Islam don't exist in Pakistan, you can just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. I would think people in the UK would understand that by now.

 

[paimei01]

What Benazir Bhutto said :

Minute 2:10 : "..he also had dealings with Omar Sheikh the man who murdered Osama Bin Laden"

The reporter does not care, he does not ask her anything about Bin Laden's death . Why ?
I think Musharaff is Bush's friend even if Bush tries to hide it- so to not cause more hate against Musharaff from those who hate USA. Bush wants him in power to keep the nuclear weapons secured. CIA killed Bhutto, they would not want her to expose more about Bin Laden. The islamic militants are against Musharaff, they would not kill his opponent.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I'm basically only following the BBC's reports, but I have to say that I don't hear any such shying off at all. There is as yet no evidence to prove anything, and that's the line I hear the BBC take.

From the BBC Website -

"There have now been so many conflicting versions of who sent the assassin that it is hard for anyone to build up an accurate picture, our security correspondent says.

Both al-Qaeda and the Taleban are perfectly plausible culprits since they hated everything the secular Ms Bhutto stood for, he adds.

But critics of President Pervez Musharraf are unlikely to be convinced by his government's insistence that it has proof al-Qaeda ordered the murder.

After a previous attempt on her life in October that killed 130 people, Ms Bhutto accused rogue elements of the Pakistani intelligence services of involvement"


As I said - the mainstream news are shying away from pointing a finger directly at Musharraf, only going as far as obliquely tlaking about 'elements within the ISI' - when surely the dictator who recently had her under house arrest and is directly threatened by her return should be on anybodies 'who done it' list.

 

[Yossarian]

Bhutto wrote an e-mail to an American adviser after the October attack saying that she'd had threats from high up in Musharraf's government, that she wasn't getting enough protection, and that if she were to die violently, Musharraf would be to blame - and that's been all over the mainstream news.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Bhutto wrote an e-mail to an American adviser after the October attack saying that she'd had threats from high up in Musharraf's government, that she wasn't getting enough protection, and that if she were to die violently, Musharraf would be to blame - and that's been all over the mainstream news.

Yes those details are in some reports - but there not being highlighted.
The sub headlines go something like - 'Al Q Blamed' 'Violence sweeps pakistan' and 'What next for democracy?'.

 

[Kaka Tim]

thank god for robert fisk!

"Weird, isn't it, how swiftly the narrative is laid down for us. Benazir Bhutto, the courageous leader of the Pakistan People's Party, is assassinated in Rawalpindi – attached to the very capital of Islamabad wherein ex-General Pervez Musharraf lives – and we are told by George Bush that her murderers were "extremists" and "terrorists"

"So let's run through this logic in the way that Inspector Ian Blair might have done in his policeman's notebook before he became the top cop in London.

Question: Who forced Benazir Bhutto to stay in London and tried to prevent her return to Pakistan? Answer: General Musharraf.
Question: Who ordered the arrest of thousands of Benazir's supporters this month? Answer: General Musharraf.
"Question: Who placed Benazir under temporary house arrest this month? Answer: General Musharraf.
Question: Who declared martial law this month? Answer General Musharraf.
Question: who killed Benazir Bhutto?
Er. Yes. Well quite.

You see the problem? Yesterday, our television warriors informed us the PPP members shouting that Musharraf was a "murderer" were complaining he had not provided sufficient security for Benazir. Wrong. They were shouting this because they believe he killed her."

The last paragraph highlights exactly what Im talking about.

full article here -

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3291600.ece

 

[Jonti]

Thanks for that; and thank goodness for Robert Fisk.

It is bizarre that when these great crimes occur we are somehow dissuaded from asking the obvious question of "Who stands to benefit?"

Ever since 9/11 to ask such questions has somehow become politically incorrect and suspect. No longer can we think about and analyse these crimes and who they benefit. Instead we must immediately conclude they are conducted by mindless unreasoning extremists and terrorists.

I fail to see how that kind of studied ignorance is of any use to us.

 

[Idris2002]

She was hardly a pauper though, her family had 40,000 acres of land. Why would she risk her life if increasing her wealth was her only aim?

Aye, that's the rub. These are the people who are going to bring land reform?

 

[ViolentPanda]

unfortunately, the failed state of Pakistan is directly due to the mind set and lack of education of its people...

You couldn't be more wrong if your name were Wrong Wrong McWrong.
Pakistan had a public education system, a very good one. It had a secular mindset that held sway over most of the country except the tribal areas in the west. What is causing the Pakistani state to fail isn't ignorance, it's the rebound effect of promoting tribal and religious fundamentalism as a solution to Afghanistan's problems. Read through any decent academically-produced primer on Pakistan for a true morality tale about foreign policy chickens coming home to roost.

...those things will be almost impossible to change in the short term

Tell Venezualans that. They increased their literacy rate from just under 60% to over 90% in 4 years. Pakistan's functional literacy rate is about 60% too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Exactly, but that is not a popular theme around here...

I find it breathtaking most on this thread shun from even mentioning Islamic radicalism and its possible (and I believe probable) complicity in Bhuttos demise. The killing of Danny Pearl and French aid workers in Pakistan is a testament to their deeds, and the pattern of suicide attacks is a good indicator of their possible guilt.

So you've obviously not actually bothered to read the thread, where such things have actually been discussed widely.

In all likelihood Pakistan is suffering its own form of blowback, supporting extremeism in Afghanistan and within Pakistan (for political reasons) is coming back to haunt the elites.

This too has been discussed.

In any case you can't pretend that these radical elements of Islam don't exist in Pakistan, you can just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. I would think people in the UK would understand that by now.

Who's pretending?
Perhaps you should read this thread and the other in the general forum before sounding off.

 

[Dillinger4]

You couldn't be more wrong if your name were Wrong Wrong McWrong.
Pakistan had a public education system, a very good one. It had a secular mindset that held sway over most of the country except the tribal areas in the west. What is causing the Pakistani state to fail isn't ignorance, it's the rebound effect of promoting tribal and religious fundamentalism as a solution to Afghanistan's problems. Read through any decent academically-produced primer on Pakistan for a true morality tale about foreign policy chickens coming home to roost.

Tell Venezualans that. They increased their literacy rate from just under 60% to over 90% in 4 years. Pakistan's functional literacy rate is about 60% too.

Can I second that? I wanted to reply to that particular quote as well, but didn't know quite what to say.

 

[mears]

So you've obviously not actually bothered to read the thread, where such things have actually been discussed widely.

This too has been discussed.

Who's pretending?
Perhaps you should read this thread and the other in the general forum before sounding off.

No, I Have read the thread and these are the conclusions I reach.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, I Have read the thread and these are the conclusions I reach.

Which proves the usual point about you yet again.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can I second that? I wanted to reply to that particular quote as well, but didn't know quite what to say.

of course you can.

It's sad that a lot of people seem to base their opinions on Pakistan per se on really shallow stereotypes. Pakistan isn't sinking because of Islamism or ignorance, it's sinking because the Pakistani political classes (including the military and the intelligence sector) are not only corrupt (with the exchequer shrinking year on year), but thought they could stabilise Pakistan by promoting "radical Islam" in Afghanistan and Central Asia from the Afghan-Soviet war onward, ignoring the fact that the western half of Pakistan has porous borders and age-old tribal connections with Afghanistan (indeed, Afghanistan has laid claim, since 1947, to part of Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province) that supercede any loyalty to the state, Pashtunwali being just one of the ancillary factors.

 

[butchersapron]

of course you can.

It's sad that a lot of people seem to base their opinions on Pakistan per se on really shallow stereotypes. Pakistan isn't sinking because of Islamism or ignorance, it's sinking because the Pakistani political classes (including the military and the intelligence sector) are not only corrupt (with the exchequer shrinking year on year), but thought they could stabilise Pakistan by promoting "radical Islam" in Afghanistan and Central Asia from the Afghan-Soviet war onward, ignoring the fact that the western half of Pakistan has porous borders and age-old tribal connections with Afghanistan (indeed, Afghanistan has laid claim, since 1947, to part of Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province) that supercede any loyalty to the state, Pashtunwali being just one of the ancillary factors.

Couldn't agree more, but i'd add that islamisation was also used internally to police the working class and reform minded groups - principaly the landless labourers who were making fortunes for the political elite - including the Bhuttos - in fact, who was it that declared the state an Islamic Republic? Why, it was the sainted Benizar's father...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

the woman and her husband were corrupt criminals who looted the nation of millions, if not billions, of dollars.

Yeah but you can't say that now becuase she's ascending via the media to that special throne only Diana, Jill Dildo and Maddeline are allowed to sit on...

 

[mears]

Couldn't agree more, but i'd add that islamisation was also used internally to police the working class and reform minded groups - principaly the landless labourers who were making fortunes for the political elite - including the Bhuttos - in fact, who was it that declared the state an Islamic Republic? Why, it was the sainted Benizar's father...

You think some type of communist revolution is the answer in Pakistan?

 

[Lock&Light]

Yeah but you can't say that now becuase she's ascending via the media to that special throne only Diana, Jill Dildo and Maddeline are allowed to sit on...

Are you actually refusing to grow up?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Are you actually refusing to grow up?

You really have no clue don't you?

 

[nino_savatte]

Tbh, I think the military are heavily involved in this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You think some type of communist revolution is the answer in Pakistan?

Fuck me, but that's a stupid question even from you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Couldn't agree more, but i'd add that islamisation was also used internally to police the working class and reform minded groups -

Although IIRC the Islamisation of Pakistan was more toward a "traditionalised" liberal Sunni Islam than the Deobandi-Wahhabi mish-mash that's taken root over the last 20 or so years (and brought with it the murderous intolerance toward Shia and Sufism).

...principaly the landless labourers who were making fortunes for the political elite - including the Bhuttos - in fact, who was it that declared the state an Islamic Republic? Why, it was the sainted Benizar's father...

Odd how land reform always managed to slip past successive Pakistan govts, isn't it? One would almost think it was deliberate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tbh, I think the military are heavily involved in this.

Given the military involvement in so many facets of Pakistani life, it'd be more surprising if there were no connection.

 

[DexterTCN]

A lot to get your head around with this whole thing.

While reading all the different links etc I read that she had had her brother shot and killed.

 

[rekil]

Benazir Bhutto's 19-year-old son Bilawal has been chosen to take over her Pakistan People's Party, after her assassination on Thursday.

He will become president in a ceremonial capacity while he finishes his studies at Oxford University.

Bilawal told journalists at the Bhutto family home: "My mother always said democracy is the best revenge".

Having a laugh or what.

 

[butchersapron]

"My mother always said democracy is the best revenge".

That or killing your own brother for challenging your role as self-appointed chairperson for life of the PPP.