Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide bombing
- Thread starter Meltingpot
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It'll be interesting (in the academic sense) to find out who was responsible for this (rather than who gets blamed for it or confesses to it, that is). There are several possibilities, but I'd go for (in no particular order):
Sharif's people (for reasons so obvious they're too obvious, IYSWIM).
ISI (attempt to implicate/discredit Musharraf because he's a busted flush as far as political control of Pakistan is concerned).
Musharraf's people (attempt to present Musharraf as a "strong leader", the only person capable of steering the country through the coming months/years).
Taliban/Taliban's supporters in Pakistan (attempt to coerce more material support from Pakistan on a "play ball or next time it's members of the government" basis).
One of a handful of "western" intelligence agencies (on the basis of maintaining the dictatorship as the best form of government in Pakistan while western soldiers are in Afghanistan).
I'm sure others will have other possibilities in mind!
Sharif's people (for reasons so obvious they're too obvious, IYSWIM).
ISI (attempt to implicate/discredit Musharraf because he's a busted flush as far as political control of Pakistan is concerned).
Musharraf's people (attempt to present Musharraf as a "strong leader", the only person capable of steering the country through the coming months/years).
Taliban/Taliban's supporters in Pakistan (attempt to coerce more material support from Pakistan on a "play ball or next time it's members of the government" basis).
One of a handful of "western" intelligence agencies (on the basis of maintaining the dictatorship as the best form of government in Pakistan while western soldiers are in Afghanistan).
I'm sure others will have other possibilities in mind!
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
ViolentPanda said:
Honestly, the idea of a joint Taliban/frontier tribes alliance taking over Pakistan is far-fetched. They are barely holding on to what they have already. There is no popular support for Taliban style lunacy in Pakistan - according to the polls the PPP (led by a woman, signed up to the War on Terror and deffo pro-western) were probably going to win the election, if held. There's just no popular support for the headbangers.
What there is, is a fair deal of anger amongst all sections of society about the whole bullshit War on Terror, and I'd guess the suicide bombings will continue until the western invasion of Afghanistan (or "nation building" or whatever nonsense euphemism we are using now) ends, ie when we do a deal with the Taliban, <ahem> sorry I mean "hand over to Afghan security forces".
I am sure the northern tribes know that they would be fish in a barrel in any serious war and will instead allow low-intensity terror operations to continue unhindered and leave it at that.
why do you say that? it's business as usual and there will be little, if any, changes.editor said:
this bullshit has been going on for decades
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Detroit City said:
I'd say that is the terrible news for Pakistan.
Bingo!Yuwipi Woman said:
the conflict will continue to rage as it has for many a decade. Bhutto was a just another American stoodge, whose role was to give an impression of a struggle towards democracy.Good riddance IMO.
Whats needed is not a dogmatic governance of any kind, but the opportunity for the people of Pakistan to explore what they want. Something which the USA will never allow.
Whats needed is not a dogmatic governance of any kind, but the opportunity for the people of Pakistan to explore what they want. Something which the USA will never allow.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Who said anything about a "takeover"?co-op said:
You mean "the pacification of Afghanistan so we can get our hands on that FINE Caspian oil and Central Asian oil and gas without traversing Iran, and if that means backing nutters, so be it"?
It's unsurprising there's anger though, Pakistan has economically and socially regressed in the last 15 years or so, and the infrastructure has become increasingly corrupted (at least according to friends who work in the region). Add to that watching your government cuddle up with one of the causes of your problems post-independence, and Musharraf should be thanking Allah that the air of tension hasn't turned to full-scale revolt.
Of course, and that's where they would have the advantage. If you're on the "weaker" side then one doesn't need to win a prolonged low-intensity conflict, one merely has to avoid losing. They could, I suspect, secede in all but name, and there's little Islamabad would be able to do (especially given their less than fortunate history in the frontier provinces).
As I said, I don't thing it's likely, just that it's possible.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Detroit City said:
Not this sort of bullshit.
Yes, the to and fro between dictatorship and (quasi) democracy has been going on for decades, but the dynamics of the last dictatorship are different, not least in the fact that "the war on terror" has provided a cloak of (spurious) legitimacy to the repression of dissent.
Add to that the role of the intelligence services, the military and the criminal cartels, all of whom stand to lose in ways that either didn't exist or were less pervasive in the Bhutto and Sharif govts, and this time things smell worse for Pakistan than the last time they took on India.
actually, Pakistan has been a "stooge" of the US for 6 decades....they really had no choice as their arch enemy (India) was backed by the USSR for ages...muckypup said:
getting rid of the rampant corruption would probably be a good start...Pakistan is weak because its people are weak and uneducated.muckypup said:
Geoff kerr-morg
New Member
How will this upset the balance not only in the so called 'war on terror' but also in relation with India?
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
Detroit City said:getting rid of the rampant corruption would probably be a good start...Pakistan is weak because its people are weak and uneducated.
Unfortunately for Pakistan the corruption is endemic & like Iran a large part of the commercial/industrial sector of the country is run by the military who have no incentive to stop corruption. Education is either westnerised for the military/professional elite for the poor its zombie time at the local madarass usful for turning out brainwashed religious muppets not good for turning out the technocrats/doctors/teachers a country needs to prosper. Who did it..?? I would say the ISI/Taliban/Al-Q. They saw Bhutto as a threat to there power (corruption) base. She must have known there was a very good chance of this happening, but still returned to her country, brave women..
actually, she could have written the manual on corruptionAndy the Don said:
and to get ratings/revenuemuckypup said:
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
do you think they were sitting around their green baize tables making these contingency plans last night?muckypup said:
pseudo-crisis? what pseudo crisis?
david dissadent
New Member
First and foremost this is like running with an open flame through a fireworks factory. It may not set of all kinds of political fireworks, but that may be more luck than anything else.
There are currently three insurgency campaigns inside Pakistan. The first is the well known one in Waziristan and the other North West tribal agencies.
The second is the exceedingly complex Kashmire situation where ISI orginised anit Indian groups rub shoulders with pro independent Kamshimiri millitants and anti Pakistani al Qeada influenced Islamist millitants. It is possible no one really knows who and what is who. It is entirely possible that the ISI handlers cannot be certain of what is going on with the groups they are feeding money to. Its not only the CIA that is subject to blowback.
The third is the Balochi insurgency in the South West, that may or may not have CIA backing in order to facilitate insurgency in Iranian Balochi ethnic areas.
The real problem could be the North West frontier insurgency is that one has the largest potential to find a receptive audiance amoung other Pakistani's. There are strong credible reports that groups of sympathetic midlevel officers resigned from the army after 9/11 and joined the insurgency. Apparently some of these officers have been boning up on there Che and Mao in terms of guerilla warfware and are now mixing Islmaism with well proven communist insurgency stratagies. Together with the kind of sympathetic officers that found favour in the days of Zia ul Haq and many pro Islamist Pakistanis, there is a potential (of indetermined potential) for a widespread insurgency and even coup (especialy with the wild card of Hamid Gul still to be played.).
Other potential sources of instability are factions within the army, widespread rioting and factionalism along ethinic lines and so forth.
Everything is extreamly murky and I believe very few in the world have the information and ability to empathise with the various factions to make accurate predictions of how the dice will fall.
It should be worth remembering that in the 1916 uprising in Ireland the IRA had little real popular support for a war of independence, yet the crowns responce to the uprising led to the kind of appatite for a war that came to its fruition in 1922. "Events dear boy".
There are currently three insurgency campaigns inside Pakistan. The first is the well known one in Waziristan and the other North West tribal agencies.
The second is the exceedingly complex Kashmire situation where ISI orginised anit Indian groups rub shoulders with pro independent Kamshimiri millitants and anti Pakistani al Qeada influenced Islamist millitants. It is possible no one really knows who and what is who. It is entirely possible that the ISI handlers cannot be certain of what is going on with the groups they are feeding money to. Its not only the CIA that is subject to blowback.
The third is the Balochi insurgency in the South West, that may or may not have CIA backing in order to facilitate insurgency in Iranian Balochi ethnic areas.
The real problem could be the North West frontier insurgency is that one has the largest potential to find a receptive audiance amoung other Pakistani's. There are strong credible reports that groups of sympathetic midlevel officers resigned from the army after 9/11 and joined the insurgency. Apparently some of these officers have been boning up on there Che and Mao in terms of guerilla warfware and are now mixing Islmaism with well proven communist insurgency stratagies. Together with the kind of sympathetic officers that found favour in the days of Zia ul Haq and many pro Islamist Pakistanis, there is a potential (of indetermined potential) for a widespread insurgency and even coup (especialy with the wild card of Hamid Gul still to be played.).
Other potential sources of instability are factions within the army, widespread rioting and factionalism along ethinic lines and so forth.
Everything is extreamly murky and I believe very few in the world have the information and ability to empathise with the various factions to make accurate predictions of how the dice will fall.
It should be worth remembering that in the 1916 uprising in Ireland the IRA had little real popular support for a war of independence, yet the crowns responce to the uprising led to the kind of appatite for a war that came to its fruition in 1922. "Events dear boy".
purves grundy said:
whichever government gets in will be a puppet. benazairs death will be played to its advantage in the 'war on terror' and will be used to justify and substantially further draconian measures on the 'islamacist' populace.
civil unrest is created and inspired by the very very old strategy of divide and rule. Iraq is another example. find the fault lines, be they ethnic or religious, and work them against each other. it destablises the community and weakens the populace. who then become so desperate for peace that they'll be ready to pay any price.
What a sad situation, I guess you need nerves of steel to play politics in Pakistan. I guess the culprits could be Musharraf himself, someone in her inner circle, elements of Pakistani intelligence, Al Queda or like minded Islamic militants. I wonder if the world will ever know the truth.
What makes this situation scary as well are the nuclear weapons in Pakistan and who has control over their useage. There are few countries more dangerous at this point than illiterate, poverty stricken Pakistan.
What makes this situation scary as well are the nuclear weapons in Pakistan and who has control over their useage. There are few countries more dangerous at this point than illiterate, poverty stricken Pakistan.
bordas2006
New Member
I have been reading some comments on the BBC :have your say and it looks as they are too many comments trying to blame religion and defend the US policies on the so called war on terror!!!Benazir Bhutto was a corrupt politician following a swiss court judgement ,and because she returned with an american agenda she got killed
With regard to Bhutto herself, Do people - outside Pakistan - still believe she was out there to "do good" ?
Brave or greedy for power again ?
Form what I know her clans past & ethos , I cant see the former being a root of her return to pakistan
BHutto herself - she & her parasitic kind can fuck off - and the way in which the politicos trotted out the mealy mouthed praises forBB, despite her track record - I dont support slaughter or murder on any level, but the malign influence of possible power and a de militarised Musharaf proved too much of a lure for her- it was pretty fuckin obvious from her first landing that there was going to be bother
In the real world of a corrpt and unstable Pakistan, this ambitious politicians blinkered return to her home country may yet be the spark that further undermines whatever/ any development have have been made in recent years ( not much )
Well dont BB, your legacy may be further bloodshed - maybe you should have stayed holed up in Dubai and continued to hold court in the capitals of Europe with your rich mates.*
A bad day all round for Pakistan
* NB this is a jaundiced overview
Brave or greedy for power again ?
Form what I know her clans past & ethos , I cant see the former being a root of her return to pakistan
BHutto herself - she & her parasitic kind can fuck off - and the way in which the politicos trotted out the mealy mouthed praises forBB, despite her track record - I dont support slaughter or murder on any level, but the malign influence of possible power and a de militarised Musharaf proved too much of a lure for her- it was pretty fuckin obvious from her first landing that there was going to be bother
In the real world of a corrpt and unstable Pakistan, this ambitious politicians blinkered return to her home country may yet be the spark that further undermines whatever/ any development have have been made in recent years ( not much )
Well dont BB, your legacy may be further bloodshed - maybe you should have stayed holed up in Dubai and continued to hold court in the capitals of Europe with your rich mates.*
A bad day all round for Pakistan
* NB this is a jaundiced overview
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Gmarthews said:They'll use this as an excuse to avoid democracy.
How sad!
It's possible.
Fortunately, Pakistan has always stepped back from full-time dictatorship in the past. One hopes this will happen again, and it may be that Ms Bhutto's death will provide part of the impetus for that.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
bordas2006 said:
I'd loosely agree with you on Bhutto's lack of probity, but many of Pakistan's stability problems are undeniably down to US interference from independence onward, especially the money that flooded ISI-ward during the Afghan-Soviet war, and the concomitant encouragement by the US of the use of drug-trafficking to help fund the Mujahideens.
She may have been killed because she had an American agenda, but she may equally well have been killed for many different reasons.
bordas2006 said:
Was that judgement not overturned on appeal?
Similar threads
