Being British is about being loyal to Britain, not just your documents.

[ViolentPanda]

It is the best attempt we have at the moment.

And that's supposed to stand as a justification?

Pathetic

You are missing the point, it's not being more or less British, it is about loyalty to your homeland, I don't care too much if people think it's kind of cool to despise their own society, like a spoiled child hating their parents, as the get older they learn different. For your jokes and jibs about Blair and the government I know no one here would want to see Britain brought to its knees by a terrorist attack.

Approximately one fortieth of British subjects don't have the UK as their "homeland". Are you saying that they should be loyal to the country of their birth, or are you merely inarticulate?

But there are plenty of others who make no great secret that they hate Britain and British society and want to see harm come to it. Through the democratic process by want to see the hammer brought down on those people hard and is what I believe is going to happen in the near future.

If "the hammer comes down hard" on people then it will be/is in defiance of democracy, not as part of it. The hammer can only come down hard if we set aside our hard-won constitutional rights and obligations. You may wish to live in a dictatorship masquerading as a democracy, but I prefer to live in a society that, as fallible and piecemeal as its' democracy is, doesn't throw away freedoms willy-nilly for the sake of a spurious sense of security.

Name may a great British free thinker who was also a traitor to their country?

How is that relevant (unless of course you're so intellectually bankrupt as to assume that there is a black and white divide of "with us or against us" in terms of conformity to state policy ).

Regarding the 7 7 bombers, this is why I thing that have to be a distinction made between having a British passport and being loyal Britain, I think it's safe to say the 7 7 bombers were not very loyal to Britain, that is why it is more important, or rather it is going be more important, to talk in terms of where you'll loyalties lie rather than what is printed in your passport.

Could you restructure that into a coherent paragraph rather than babble, please?

Thanks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thomas Paine for one.

Ah, but sour Tom wasn't a traitor to his country, he was deemed a traitor by the swine who ran his country.

If the pinch-faced old bastard were alive now I'd snog him.

 

[Mallard]

Ah, but sour Tom wasn't a traitor to his country, he was deemed a traitor by the swine who ran his country.

If the pinch-faced old bastard were alive now I'd snog him.

I slight point of pedantry Panda but being a 'traitor' is usually defined in these terms. I wouldn't see him as such either but that's how many did/do see him.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I slight point of pedantry Panda but being a 'traitor' is usually defined in these terms. I wouldn't see him as such either but that's how many did/do see him.

Give me a good reason why I should adopt definitions set out by unaccountable rulers and maybe I'll deem them worthy to use as a measure.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Ah, blood and soil is it? What bollocks. My "homeland" is just an accident of geography, I have no loyalty whatsoever to a splodge on a map.

What I have loyalty to is humans ultimately, my class, my community, and my family. Wherever they happened to have been born.

Thing is though, would you then tell the Tibetans, say, that their 'homeland was just an accident of geography'?

I mean, surely then, the Han Chinese have just as much of a right to be there as the Tibetans do?

It's very hipocritical of some elements of the left to say they don't want the English to have England, but then support the right of Tibetans and other indiginous people like the Palestinians to have their own homeland. I mean taking the arguments of nany on here, the Dalai Lama is the biggest racist ever, for not wanting the Han to settle in Tibet en masse.

Is identity important or not?

It would be wonderful to live in a one-world state with no borders where we could all be mates, but its never going to be like that. People have identities, I don't see what's wrong with that./

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

^
innit

But at least then be consistent. Do you reprimand turkish people for having ties to turkey? Pakistani people for having ties to Pakistan? Italian people for having ties to ITaly? etc

And if not, why not?

The idea of 'one world, one people' is laudable, but often it falls down when I realise that many who advocate it take a rather orwellian view - stripping western people of their identity, but celebrating the identities of non-western people.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

You cannot and should not call yourself British if you wish to have no part in British society and your loyalties are with the enemies of Britain. By all means you have the right to follow your conscience and make your stand. But I am pretty certain that in the near future you are going to have to take responsibility and consequences for your decisions, unlike now.

I entirely agree.

I dont and have never called myself British, I want to see the imperialist war-mongering British state destroyed. The sooner Scotland is free to build a pluralist welcoming society for all who want to live there, free from the threat of state ID cards and offering refuge to those who are fleeing from violence, at least in part caused by the British state's foreign policy, the better.

I am quite hopeful that come May 07 I'll have the opportunity to take the responsibility and consequences for my decisions to build a welcoming independent country run for the benefit of all who chose to make it their home.

 

[Fullyplumped]

I entirely agree.

I dont and have never called myself British, I want to see the imperialist war-mongering British state destroyed. The sooner Scotland is free to build a pluralist welcoming society for all who want to live there, free from the threat of state ID cards and offering refuge to those who are fleeing from violence, at least in part caused by the British state's foreign policy, the better.

I am quite hopeful that come May 07 I'll have the opportunity to take the responsibility and consequences for my decisions to build a welcoming independent country run for the benefit of all who chose to make it their home.

And how will you do that, then? Vote SNP? Or SSP? or Solidspect? Or cross your fingers and wish really really hard?

 

[Mallard]

Give me a good reason why I should adopt definitions set out by unaccountable rulers and maybe I'll deem them worthy to use as a measure.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Give me a good reason why I should adopt definitions set out by unaccountable rulers and maybe I'll deem them worthy to use as a measure.

I was using 'traitor' in the terms the OP meant.

Partly to highlight the irony of presenting unthinking patroitism and 'free thinking' as compatible.

 

[Mallard]

I was using 'traitor' in the terms the OP meant.

Partly to highlight the irony of presenting unthinking patroitism and 'free thinking' as compatible.

A better post than mine!

 

[London_Calling]

You are missing the point, it's not being more or less British, it is about loyalty to your homeland, I don't care too much if people think it's kind of cool to despise their own society, like a spoiled child hating their parents, as the get older they learn different.

Fwiw, my loyalties lay with my personal sense of morality, decency and common courtesy.

My duties lay with obligations to, for example, education through learning, including searching for independent writers and opinion - as opposed to, say, lazily relying on the bbc.

But as you're so interested in 'British', perhaps you might do yourself a favour by contemplating who it is who propagates the concept of 'nationalism/Britishness, and who it is who benefits from it because, in all honestly, it is you who’s “missing the point”, and by a country mile. You’re being mugged.

I’ll leave you to get back to a middle-class Michael Caine in Zulu, cos it’s clear that’s where you’re at.

 

[Mallard]

I’ll leave you to get back to a middle-class Michael Caine in Zulu, cos it’s clear that’s where you’re at.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Fwiw, my loyalties lay with my personal sense of morality, decency and common courtesy.

My duties lay with obligations to, for example, education through learning, including searching for independent writers and opinion - as opposed to, say, lazily relying on the bbc.

But as you're so interested in 'British', perhaps you might do yourself a favour by contemplating who it is who propagates the concept of 'nationalism/Britishness, and who it is who benefits from it because, in all honestly, it is you who’s “missing the point”, and by a country mile. You’re being mugged.

I’ll leave you to get back to a middle-class Michael Caine in Zulu, cos it’s clear that’s where you’re at.

So are the Tibetans being mugged when the Dalai Lama tells them to identify with being Tibetan? Was Nelson Mandela a mugger for telling black South Africans to rally around and have their sense of nationhood?

Also, I think that capitalism is what benefits from the current state of affairs... I am from the East End of London, and I find the fractured state of society that has arisen from multiculturalism quite worrying. I am definitely NOT against multiracialism - my wife is Chinese, my son mixed race - but it would be nice for England to get a better sense of common purpose. Quite why people like you support this divisiive ideology is not really clear. Multiculturalism keeps people divided and benefits the ruling/capitalist class, as far as I can see. Keep everyont talking different languages, living in ghettoes, you will be able to rule them more easily.

 

[Greebozz]

I agree with many of the posters here, they contain a lot of interesting reading, good points, however they are in no real way connected to the issues I was raising.

I put my points forward, and they have largely been shouted down misinterpreted, that's OK I have merely said what I believe, and it has not gone down too well. Fair enough it is your responsibility now. I respect the majority even though it seems to be blame Bush and Blair and all our problems will go away. We are in for a interesting times ahead in this country. I can't wait.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> even though it seems to be blame Bush and Blair and all our problems will go away. <snip>

Where do you get the 'and all our problems will go away' part from?

One of the reasons I'm so pissed off with them is that they clearly have no idea what to do about the horrible mess their incompetence has created.

 

[London_Calling]

Mr Dog - Of course. Do you think the Dalai Lama and Mandela were/are beyond appealing to the base emotions of the masses to achieve their politcal ends?

Maybe you think they occupy some kind of moral high ground . . . nope, don't get your point.

btw, you're only being "mugged" if you believe the bollocks, as Greebozz appears to do in relation to 'British'.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm somewhat retarded so excuse me for posting
The Obvious Question:

Why is this thread on U75?

Because...
a) a blind can see that the OP targets Muslims
b) since I am a member here nobody ever opened a post to me with "salaam aleikum". Which makes me guess "no Muslims here besides me" (and not all too many people who like "religions" in general).

All reasons to suspect that none of the persons the OP wants to reach with his " Clear Message on How To Be British" ever made one post here or reads the board.

Question to OP: Why wasting your time here? Why don't you send your touching opinion piece to one of your "British" tabloids?

salaam.

 

[rhys gethin]

I find the fractured state of society that has arisen from multiculturalism quite worrying. I am definitely NOT against multiracialism - my wife is Chinese, my son mixed race - but it would be nice for England to get a better sense of common purpose.

Well, you do seem quite happy with the concept of 'England' as separate from the UK and, I suppose, breaking away from it when it finds this 'common purpose'. I am happy to support you in that, but why do you see it as something other than 'multiculturalism'? It is a very very long time since England was a separate culture, if it ever was, surely.

 

[danny la rouge]

Thing is though, would you then tell the Tibetans, say, that their 'homeland was just an accident of geography'?

Yes. because it was.

I mean, surely then, the Han Chinese have just as much of a right to be there as the Tibetans do?

You tell me; I'm not particularly well versed in Tibet.

It's very hipocritical of some elements of the left to say they don't want the English to have England,

I'm Scottish, so you might know more than me on this one, but do sections of the left really say the English can't have England? Where are they going to send them, then?

but then support the right of Tibetans and other indiginous people like the Palestinians to have their own homeland.

Everyone needs somewhere to live. I'm pretty up on Palestine, but I guess you're not really asking about that, just wondering where the English will live if they can't have England.

I mean taking the arguments of nany on here, the Dalai Lama is the biggest racist ever, for not wanting the Han to settle in Tibet en masse.

Is he? I thought the problem was that the Tibetans were being told they couldn't have their own culture/ I thought that was the issue?

People have identities,

Indeed they do. And the diversity of humanity is a wonderful thing. But when people start thinking (for example) that a working class British Muslim has more in common with a British Muslim community leader who owns several businesses, than with any other member of the working class, then they have got things very, very wrong.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I’ll leave you to get back to a middle-class Michael Caine in Zulu, cos it’s clear that’s where you’re at.

"Mooslims, sir! Faaaaahsands of 'em!"

 

[London_Calling]

"Dont. Frow. Bluddy Spears. At. Me"

 

[badmammal]

About the OP.

What a load of racist and jingoistic crap!

This type of half baked intellectually bankrupt shite, deviod of any sense of reality is more suited to a BNP forum than this one.

Mind you, it does have comic value though.

 

[danny la rouge]

"Dont. Frow. Bluddy Spears. At. Me"

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was using 'traitor' in the terms the OP meant.

I Know.

Partly to highlight the irony of presenting unthinking patroitism and 'free thinking' as compatible.

Ironic to us, maybe, but not to unthinking patriots such as Greebozz.

Life would be so much simpler if such people did an appreciation of irony, or even perhaps a bijou soupçon of self-awareness.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

b) since I am a member here nobody ever opened a post to me with "salaam aleikum". Which makes me guess "no Muslims here besides me" (and not all too many people who like "religions" in general).

Well that's a pretty stupid assumption isn't it?

The fact that no one has ever replied to me utilising the phrase "och aye the nooo jimmeh!" does not mean i'm the only scot on these boards.

However the OP is very very silly indeed.

 

[Megaton]

This is the cold hard fact. If you call yourself British, but you want nothing to do with mainstream society, and have contempt and hostility to anyone outside your minority group, and you are against the democratic process, and if you are an apologist and supporter of terrorism. If you are on the side of those killing our troops, and care nothing if harm comes to the UK. Then my friend you will be seen as nothing less than a traitor.

You cannot and should not call yourself British if you wish to have no part in British society and your loyalties are with the enemies of Britain. By all means you have the right to follow your conscience and make your stand. But I am pretty certain that in the near future you are going to have to take responsibility and consequences for your decisions, unlike now.

You may not understand or agree with this, but the reason it is going to happen is that the people who love and value our rich British history, and know the great people, the inventors, the scientists, the campaigners for social justice; Who see the good work being done in this country by millions of people of all races and religious background how value and respect this great country of ours, will not put up with it anymore.

It is this majority who will make life increasingly difficult and bring to account that minority who wishes to enjoy all the rights and privileges of our society but who want their own form of apartheid, and isolation within British communities and who seem to thrive on a culture of hatred and victimhood based on foreign tribal traditions.

Sure take your stand it is a free country, at the moment there are no consequences no hard decisions to make, this will change I am certain, I absolutely passionately and certainly wanted it to. If anyone hates our country and their loyalties are other than British, I would like life to become decidedly uncomfortable for them. If anyone wants the rights and privileges of British society they have to be part of British society, end of story.

That sounds like Fascism to me!

 

[The Groke]

That sounds like Fascism to me!

It sounds like trolling dribble to me.......

 

[TonkaToy]

That sounds like Fascism to me!

I dunno what the fuck he's on about to be honest.

 

[portman]

I've no problems acknowledging the rich literary heritage - Shakespeare, the Brontes, Dickens, Joseph Conrad, Geroge Orwell, JG Ballard - to mention just a few out of the many. The artistic heritage - Turner, Hockney, Bridget Riley - again a selection of the few from the many. Music (Classical) - Purcell, Byrd, Holst, Vaughn Williams, Rutter - (Popular) The Kinks, Small Faces....too many to mention. Inventors and engineers - Stephenson, Brunel, Baird and the many others who contributed to the modern life we enjoy.

A rich tradition of radical dissent from the Peasant's Revolt and the Levellers through to William Wilberforce and the thousands who mobilised against the facists in Cable Street - all worthy of celebration.

While I'm happy to acknowledge the contributions of Britons who have contributed to the good of humanity over the years, it doesn't mean to say I would extend the same acknowledgement to the actions of the British state. Which on any rational analysis are worthy of some justified criticism to say the least.

What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to Britishness, there is no simplistic either/or involved - there are a lot of grey areas and nuances involved. Life's like that - complex. That's what makes it interesting.

To finish, when it comes to a choice of national solidarity or class/human solidarity, the latter wins by miles everytime...