Beginning Programming - Advice Required

[gurrier]

No, thank fuck - that would be the final straw. It's WS/SOAP for everything...

* emails Fruitloop's boss with suggestion for a WS/SOAP -> CORBA bridge tier - 'industry standard enterprise architecture, etc, etc' *

 

[fractionMan]

* emails Fruitloop's boss with suggestion for a WS/SOAP -> CORBA bridge tier - 'industry standard enterprise architecture, etc, etc' *

Yeah, and make sure you're using PKI client auth while you're at it.

 

[Fruitloop]

with Shibboleth DA and mobile clients....

This could go on forever, couldn't it.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I need to learn VBA for work, but I think it would be an advantage for me to learn other langauges, especially an oo one like C++ or Java.

I have heard though that C++ is probably the hardest thing in the universe to learn. Would it be easier to start with Java or Ruby?

Ruby, I'd say, and Java is certainly easier to learn than C++. Initially it's all about getting the concepts so you might as well start with something with as few "WTF" quirks as possible.

(disclaimer: my Java is pretty much non-existent, I started learning a few years ago and didn't go very far, but I remember what it was like learning it, and I distinctly remember thinking "this is so much better than C++" which I'd also been trying to learn)

 

[Fruitloop]

But you can do so much more damage with C++

 

[jæd]

(disclaimer: my Java is pretty much non-existent, I started learning a few years ago and didn't go very far, but I remember what it was like learning it, and I distinctly remember thinking "this is so much better than C++" which I'd also been trying to learn)

Java = English
.Net = American English
C++ = Latin
C = Greek

...

Ruby = Chav speak

 

[lobster]

"Programming is like sex - you make one little mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life. "

Thats a classic line, like linus Torvalds quote ""Software is like sex; it's better when it's free."


"i started on Pascal, about three years ago, although i'd done machine code programing before that."

There are not may programmers who can say they programme in machine code, Mel Kaye would be proud of you.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?The+Story+of+Mel

 

[stdPikachu]

Ah, the story of Mel - a classic of the hacker genre!

 

[FridgeMagnet]

But you can do so much more damage with C++

"C++: All The System Vandalism Of C, But With Objects"

(I did learn C at university. I've forgotten it all. Good.)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Might want to check this out, Eric Raymond's How to be a hacker (in the original sense of the word)

 

[Bob_the_lost]

"i started on Pascal, about three years ago, although i'd done machine code programing before that."

There are not may programmers who can say they programme in machine code, Mel Kaye would be proud of you.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?The+Story+of+Mel

A very stupid machine, but i think it does qualify as machine code. Programing a processor by memorising hex codes and then inputting them with a couple of switches and a screwdriver. Ah the good old days...

Then having to learn a new set of codes as the exams were done with a different processor

 

[Signal 11]

I would go for Java. It's one of the easiest to learn but powerfull and versatile enough for serious work, whatever your area of interest e.g. network servers, gui apps or web applications.

Some reasons I'd rule out some of the others mentioned...

C/C++ - not worth the effort unless you really need the lowlevelness of it, e.g. to access hardware directly. Once you know Java you'll be able to pick them up if you want to because much of the syntax is similar.

Python/Ruby - too bizarre syntax, better to learn something more standard so you can easily move on to other languages. And when you're ready to learn a wierd one it should be Lisp. Also, I would think that it would be harder to get help with them as they have a smaller userbase.

VB/.NET - Don't go there unless you want to end up like this man [mpg, 1.6MB].

*reads rest of thread*

I need to learn VBA for work

Java = English
.Net = American English
C++ = Latin
C = Greek

Spot on imho. Some more...

Perl = Arabic
COBOL = German
Lisp = French

 

[mauvais]

I'd also recommend Turbo Pascal, or maybe even something loose like PHP. That teaches you the basics but has the disavantage of not teaching you discipline; quite the opposite.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Python and Ruby don't have bizarre syntax! object.method(parameters) isn't bizarre. Don't know about Python, but at least with Ruby, the fact that the iterators are slightly non-standard is a bonus for me - they're actually methods, which makes more sense.

 

[peppery]

Thanks for the pointers. What I tend to do is look at the code of other programs and just amend that, thats how i tend to learn. Is that a bad way of doing it, is it lazy? Should I learn the theory behind the language first.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Thanks for the pointers. What I tend to do is look at the code of other programs and just amend that, thats how i tend to learn. Is that a bad way of doing it, is it lazy? Should I learn the theory behind the language first.

Code is compiled before it can be used. This turns it from readable text to comands that a computer can understand. Just looking at a compiled program won't do anything. You need to learn from some sort of teaching resource, a book, a course or something else.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The first real language I learned was Common LISP, which can rearrange your brain in interesting and useful ways. (I was eating *lots* of acid at the time)

After that, all other languages seem painfully limited, but I don't program for a living, so possibly my viewpoint is a somewhat peculiar and irrelevant one.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Code is compiled before it can be used. This turns it from readable text to comands that a computer can understand. Just looking at a compiled program won't do anything. You need to learn from some sort of teaching resource, a book, a course or something else.

Well no, not if they're looking at an interpreted language. Like Ruby, Python etc. One can learn from source in such cases.

 

[lobster]

"Then having to learn a new set of codes as the exams were done with a different processor "

Where did have the exam? i never knew they still teach machine code

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Well no, not if they're looking at an interpreted language. Like Ruby, Python etc. One can learn from source in such cases.

Ok then, ignore me

Losbster: A level electronics, it's probably not true machine code but it was still rather simplistic.

 

[lobster]

fair enough

 

[gurrier]

Thanks for the pointers. What I tend to do is look at the code of other programs and just amend that, thats how i tend to learn. Is that a bad way of doing it, is it lazy? Should I learn the theory behind the language first.

It's definitely a bad way to learn and you really should try to pick up the theory behind any language first. Your method is a sure-fire way to amass 2,000 line programs where only 2 lines actually do anything.

 

[rich!]

The first real language I learned was Common LISP, which can rearrange your brain in interesting and useful ways. (I was eating *lots* of acid at the time)

I think LISP was about the third language I learned. It's not essential to take lots of acid with LISP, but later on, LISP makes acid more comprehensible.

After that, all other languages seem painfully limited, but I don't program for a living, so possibly my viewpoint is a somewhat peculiar and irrelevant one.

No, sounds like the right one.

These days, I develop kernel, real-time and utility code in C on Debian, and write anything else in Python, 'cos I can usually guess the syntax when I need it.

I've also castigated academics for sending us students who think knowing two Microsoft "fashion of the day" languages mean they know how to program. But the failings of University education is another thing entirely... why, once we were sent a chap with a Mechanical Engineering qualification who had never been in a workshop in his course...

 

[fractionMan]

with Shibboleth DA and mobile clients....

This could go on forever, couldn't it.

Blimey, I didn't think anyone else had to use shibboleth. You poor bastard

 

[Chorlton]

I'm going to take untold shit for this but i don't care.


<prepares self>

.NET


there is said it. Listen, you are already looking at VBA so you are already half in there - by working in .NET you are of course tying yourself into Microsoft platform, but lets face it, its not a platform that is going to go away and it will keep you in employment.

.NET gets a lot of shit but to be honest if you write sloppy code in python or .NET its still sloppy code - code written well will be worth its wait in gold no matter what it is written in.



You will also have to listen to shouts of 'hair dresser code!' from java programming partners tho....


but they are just free-thinkin anarchists....

And another thing - every .NET brochure i have seen usually has some black or eastern-asian kid looking fresh faced and cool as they code - I remember the Comp-sci labs at college - full of linux hacking geeky whitekids with bad skin and badder heavy-metal t-shirts - really you want to go.NET - you know in your heart of hearts it makes sense - other dotNetterss just smell better than greasy-bapped java-hackers

 

[fractionMan]

.net aint half bad to be honest.

 

[jæd]

After that, all other languages seem painfully limited, but I don't program for a living, so possibly my viewpoint is a somewhat peculiar and irrelevant one.

Thanks for the pointers. What I tend to do is look at the code of other programs and just amend that, thats how i tend to learn. Is that a bad way of doing it, is it lazy? Should I learn the theory behind the language first.

"Programming for a living" is much more than sitting at a desk writing code... If you just pick apart others source code or hack something together quickly you'll miss out on fun things like source control, testing etc...

I started out on C++/C which gives a good basis in programming. As I said, C/C++ = Greek/Lating and if you learn that then most European languages should be obvious. Get a "Learn C++ in 21 days" type book and learn from there. At some point you'll probably want to install Linux as it'll give you a more flexible platform to use. Once I switched to Linux/Unix everything became a lot clearer. (And then I learnt how to use Perl to automate my life...)

 

[sleaterkinney]

I program in .net, it's an improvement, esp on vb, although the syntax is a bit messy.

I wouldn't learn to program on it though, too many bells and wistles and a big GUI to get lost in, plus all on the books are full of "drag the database table onto your form to make a data-access program!" rubbish. I'd start with a simple text editor and a compiler and do simple cmd line apps.

 

[gurrier]

.net aint half bad to be honest.

But it's not a programming language

There are loads of reasons why learning to program with a microsoft product is a very bad idea. Not that their stuff is particularly terrible, just that when you want to learn to program, you want as much transparency as possible - the opposite of the microsoft coding philosophy.

Everybody knows that real coders learn to code with transistors anyway. If you can't construct an arbitrary Turing machine from J-K flip-flops, you're not worth it.

 

[fractionMan]

But it's not a programming language

There are loads of reasons why learning to program with a microsoft product is a very bad idea. Not that their stuff is particularly terrible, just that when you want to learn to program, you want as much transparency as possible - the opposite of the microsoft coding philosophy.

Everybody knows that real coders learn to code with transistors anyway. If you can't construct an arbitrary Turing machine from J-K flip-flops, you're not worth it.

lol. You wuss. In my day we had valves.

By .net i really mean c#. If you're gonna bother with it though I suppose you might as well learn java instead.