BBC2 White Series
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cyberfairy
http://unicycle-emptiness.co.uk/
Yeah I'd agree on that.. though there was a good sing song at the end.
You can't beat a good sing song
Lots of ankle footage as wellbutchersapron
Bring back hanging
There were often people on busy nights, that just were never asked. They weren't on cmttee i suppose. There was a clear authors narrative though - if it grew out of the actual things they found or was pre-prepared i'm not sure. Not up to modernisation. What's the wider point that this message has?
tbh a lot of those places are anachronisms, people under the age of 40 barely set foot in them - that said it is sad to see of places that once defined a community disappearing although whats really happened is people have just moved into the pubs
a lot of the clubs reflect patriarchal yorkshire at its very worse, run by a bunch of sad old gits who are only in it for the cheap beer
a lot of the clubs reflect patriarchal yorkshire at its very worse, run by a bunch of sad old gits who are only in it for the cheap beer
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well there's your point of attack #1 - not represenatative, as the falling figures might suggest.
Why were they taken as representative?
because of laziness, naivety or some more insiduous motivation on behalf of the programmes producers
as seen from the lairyness of some of the committee meetings these are the kind of folk who tend to shout loudest
if some american middle class media type walked in they'd be the ones all over him in a second
(although if he'd walked into the pubs i used to drink in he wouldnt have walked out with his camera
)
as seen from the lairyness of some of the committee meetings these are the kind of folk who tend to shout loudest
if some american middle class media type walked in they'd be the ones all over him in a second
(although if he'd walked into the pubs i used to drink in he wouldnt have walked out with his camera
)
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
I missed the beginning, but caught the rest. What I saw, I thought was not that good. It would have been good maybe if it was just a documentary about a working men's club, but I had two main problems with it:
1. People were filmed just making racist remarks with no questioning of how/why they held the views that they did. One guy just said that where there were Asian people around the atmosphere was "uncomfortable" - really? I can't say I've noticed that.
2. The film maker seemed to assume that it is only a working men's club that gives people a sense of community, and that if you don't go to one, you don't have a sense of, or belong to, a community. Wrong. People get a sense of community from lots of other walks of life: from chatting to their neighbours, community centres, sports groups, pubs, evening classes, parents groups, schools, etc. A lot of people haven't got the time, money or inclination to spend a lot of time in a WMC. In general, they don't appeal to young people, as the activities there are more aimed at pensioners. You can't say that people who regularly go to a WMC are representative of the community as a whole.
I'll have to see the whole thing of course. But overall, I agree with what other people here have said - my skin tone, nor other peoples, does not affect the way I relate to other people.
Also, I don't quite understand the idea put across that somehow class and skin colour are related.
I think there are a lot of problems with the concept working class - it means so much politically, and yet is seen very much in terms of stereotypes. So many people claim that they are the "real working class" and that everyone else is "middle class". Only when there is a clear definition of class will the concept start to have any political mileage. At the moment it's just a concept that people chuck about in a meaningless way.
1. People were filmed just making racist remarks with no questioning of how/why they held the views that they did. One guy just said that where there were Asian people around the atmosphere was "uncomfortable" - really? I can't say I've noticed that.
2. The film maker seemed to assume that it is only a working men's club that gives people a sense of community, and that if you don't go to one, you don't have a sense of, or belong to, a community. Wrong. People get a sense of community from lots of other walks of life: from chatting to their neighbours, community centres, sports groups, pubs, evening classes, parents groups, schools, etc. A lot of people haven't got the time, money or inclination to spend a lot of time in a WMC. In general, they don't appeal to young people, as the activities there are more aimed at pensioners. You can't say that people who regularly go to a WMC are representative of the community as a whole.
I'll have to see the whole thing of course. But overall, I agree with what other people here have said - my skin tone, nor other peoples, does not affect the way I relate to other people.
Also, I don't quite understand the idea put across that somehow class and skin colour are related.
I think there are a lot of problems with the concept working class - it means so much politically, and yet is seen very much in terms of stereotypes. So many people claim that they are the "real working class" and that everyone else is "middle class". Only when there is a clear definition of class will the concept start to have any political mileage. At the moment it's just a concept that people chuck about in a meaningless way.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Develop this theme?
difficult though ain't it, my feeling is that this whole series is based on a middle class stereotype of the working class, possibly because it confirms some of the prejudices they themselves hold but would never dare utter
finding grumpy racist northerners aint rocket science and it has the twin effect of justifying the middle classes prejudice towards the working class and reaffirming the middle classes hidden racism as well
two for the price of one
and it pulls the punters in
finding grumpy racist northerners aint rocket science and it has the twin effect of justifying the middle classes prejudice towards the working class and reaffirming the middle classes hidden racism as well
two for the price of one
and it pulls the punters in
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
i saw a load of depressed, scared, frightened, disposessed people who didn't really seem to know who was to blame for their current plight or what to do about it. so they blamed someone who they're led to want to be the cause of what going on, rather than any overt hatred strangely enough.
i do think it went completely ott with the amount of airtime and accent they gave to the middle section of the programme, but the way that the interview with the committee member who fucked off and his comments were very cleverly slotted in and could be said to apply in a far wider context than he was making them imo i.e. people stuck in their ways, afraid of change, believing politicians, that sort of thing.
any sensible person would realise there's more to bradford than what was represented, this programme did exactly what i was worried it would do which was portary white w/c people as alkie xenophobes....that's what the fucks in shepherds bush assume so that's what is shown innit.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Fuck me! Some of those blokes reminded me of my grandad. Maybe he'd have turned out like that if he'd have been alive to see Blair sell him down the river.
God knows where the labour party abandoning socialism would have left him, I'm sure it would have blown his world apart. I did feel sorry for some of those blokes, lots of them knew BNP-ism is wrong, but couldn't see an alternative. Seems those that would divide and conquer the working class are doing a good job.
I did like the bit where that lad was arguing with his dad about going in the army. Its nice to see dour, northern, anti-monarchism still lives on, at least.
My dad always said there were only two jobs he'd disown me if I did, and those were the police and the forces.
The programme made me sadder than it did angry.
God knows where the labour party abandoning socialism would have left him, I'm sure it would have blown his world apart. I did feel sorry for some of those blokes, lots of them knew BNP-ism is wrong, but couldn't see an alternative. Seems those that would divide and conquer the working class are doing a good job.
I did like the bit where that lad was arguing with his dad about going in the army. Its nice to see dour, northern, anti-monarchism still lives on, at least.
My dad always said there were only two jobs he'd disown me if I did, and those were the police and the forces.
The programme made me sadder than it did angry.
was twats like that who made my life a miserybutchersapron
Bring back hanging
That is excellently put - not sure on the 'led' part, but that what BBs are for...
All I will say for now, untill the last twenty five minutes, I must have been watching a different programme than smokedout and co. I particularly found the club secretary, a thoughtful compassionate and in many ways wise old guy. He also clearly felt guilty about voting for the BNP, if that is what he had done. Most of the club clientele were over 60 and were clearly baffled by the changing times, as indeed every older generation does. I also thought that ultimately they did seem to know who had let them down, they aimed squarely at the Labour Party.
The documentary itself was for the most part elegiac (though tough for those who have the attention of a goldfish), beautifully shot, moving and sad. The fact it was by an American made it more intriguing as of course, there the notion of working class has disappeared from the radar. Unlike BA, I don't think the BBC, or the ruling classes 'have an agenda' with this, yes, they have class prejudices and such like, but I felt that this programme at least stood on its own merits, indeed the Director was not aware at the time this would be part of a series. The last twenty fives minutes were very disturbing and echo what a friend of many who goes back regularly to Dewsbury has been saying, that the guys in his old local are 'just waiting for a spark', the left, etc, must find some answers soon.
I also thought as it performs a community service it should be publically funded, God knows, some of the stuff that gets grants!
for me, it will be tomorrow nights Enoch Powell reappraisal? programme which may cause tensions, particularly with young WWC youth who know nowt about him.
The documentary itself was for the most part elegiac (though tough for those who have the attention of a goldfish), beautifully shot, moving and sad. The fact it was by an American made it more intriguing as of course, there the notion of working class has disappeared from the radar. Unlike BA, I don't think the BBC, or the ruling classes 'have an agenda' with this, yes, they have class prejudices and such like, but I felt that this programme at least stood on its own merits, indeed the Director was not aware at the time this would be part of a series. The last twenty fives minutes were very disturbing and echo what a friend of many who goes back regularly to Dewsbury has been saying, that the guys in his old local are 'just waiting for a spark', the left, etc, must find some answers soon.
I also thought as it performs a community service it should be publically funded, God knows, some of the stuff that gets grants!
for me, it will be tomorrow nights Enoch Powell reappraisal? programme which may cause tensions, particularly with young WWC youth who know nowt about him.
I just saw a bunch of people who couldn't change or moderate thier views to accomadate a small minority (a fact that escaped some fo them) of immigrants.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
And yet there's people on here who argue that they are working class despite being managers pulling in mucho cash!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
agreed.
the only person who seemed to hate for the sake of it was that guys nasty shit of a son.
Most of the old guys were stated life time Labour voters who felt abandoned by there party, the trade union movement and the undeniable social change going on around them locally - with no voice (or the perception of no voice) it's easy to see why the BNP becomes attractive.
instead of just lazily calling them all racist from some high and mighty point of view society would be better off thinking about how we ended up in this state and, the Labour Party in particular, doing something about reversing this tide
golightly
Actively uneconomic
I think he raised an interesting point. His argument was that he was not living hand-to-mouth, which was how working class people had lived in the past. The point was made (I can't recall by whom) that the true working class are the people coming to our country to do all the shit jobs below minimum wage. Personally I think it's worthwhile discussion to have.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That only makes sense if you reduce w/c to meaning people living in absolute poverty - that's not what the term means. And i'd ask how long this aeroplane feller could last without working.
Hollis
bloody furious
I was abit confused by the programme tbh.. I didn't catch the start, but it seemed to be conflating two different things: - the demise of the working man's club and immigration, and dressing this up as the loss of (white) working class identity.
Can't you argue the same thing about the closures of traditional boozers, or the collapse of music hall 70-80 years ago. A large part of the problem seemed to be generational - with the yoof finding other things to spend their leisure time on.
I think my main criticism would be picking a working mans club was an obvious target.. and only reflective of an element of Bradford.
Still good viewing though. The one on Barking later in the weeks got a different angle on things.
I'm not sure what you can do; these folk seem entrenched in their thinking and remain in the majority (the show stated that 15% of the community were not white). If anything the minority community has the most reason to be afraid and to feel disenfranchised.
Lazy thinking?
What do they expect: what would happen if a few elder asians wanted to join the WMC?
OK, point taken. I didn't watch it all. Hoever I noticed a lot of the racism was specific toward the asian community. I don't know if people like Paul (the racist son) have problems with other minorities.
I do still think there is a problem with entrenched thinking and not necessarily representation. After all maybe as has been said people just don't want to go to WMC's anymore (which of course only furthers the view they are anachronistic). The members themselves seemed resistant to changes (I think families were mentioned and people didn't want kids round).
I do still think there is a problem with entrenched thinking and not necessarily representation. After all maybe as has been said people just don't want to go to WMC's anymore (which of course only furthers the view they are anachronistic). The members themselves seemed resistant to changes (I think families were mentioned and people didn't want kids round).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I thought Mr. "I'm not working class, I own me own house and car but I'm not middle class neither"'s barney with his son about joining the army represented the reality of economic conscription really well.
I don't doubt he is alone in thinking them, but where is the balance? We didn't hear from the asian community.
there was an implication that bradford had fairly recently been some sunny utopia but the fact is most of those guys were kids/young men when the mills started closing - and its not as if theyve been drawn into racism by the BNP and failure of the left recently
i know wibsey and its one of those places i could guarantee that if you went there 20 years ago the local pakistani shop would have been boarded up and covered in swastikas, much like most of the rest of bradford when i was growing up
and one of the guys may have been black, but like that tosser at the end said, most of 'em say im not racist i just hate muslims (by which they mean anyone with an asian skintone) - which is why ive always argued that a lot of the anti-islam shit kicking about on both the left and right can not only sometimes be covert racism but can also be perceived as covert racism, as in nudge nudge we know what you mean son
they weren't always entrenched in that thinking was my distinct impression.
I just think it's a bit to easy to write off these people as a load of drunk old racist pensioners and not think a little bit more about how to help them (although some of the old codgers running the club don't know how to help themselves with keeping it open)
I agree the minority community probably feels equally afraid and disenfranchised, but that wasn't what this program was about.
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