BBC acquires evidence of massacre

[moono]

Sod the 'special relationship'.

 

[Bigdavalad]

I`m not saying he wasn`t..its just all that SUN type " Our Boys" shite that keeps getting reguritated every time Iraq and the army are mentioned in the same breath.......

I wasn't the one who used 'our boys' first either, TAE did.

 

[TAE]

Why the rolleyes?

The fact that you'd gladly shoot half the Iraqi police really does not help to convince me that those soldiers acted in self defence.

You have to understand the way Iraq actually works to see why 'our boys' could have been in the right.

I understand that those soldiers were not in uniform. I also understand that the MOD changed their story when some of their denials became unsustainable. And I understand that the local government was pissed off enough about the whole affair to suspend cooperation with the british.

Apart from that, yes it is possible that the troops were not in the wrong.

 

[Bigdavalad]

The fact that you'd gladly shoot half the Iraqi police really does not help to convince me that those soldiers acted in self defence.

If you'd had to convoy all the new police cars from Kuwait up to Basra so they could sell them off to the militia to use to attack you or if you'd been ambushed by people in police uniform (as plenty have) then you'd want to to shoot the useless corrupt bastards too.

I understand that those soldiers were not in uniform. I also understand that the MOD changed their story when some of their denials became unsustainable. And I understand that the local government was pissed off enough about the whole affair to suspend cooperation with the british.

Apart from that, yes it is possible that the troops were not in the wrong.

They probably weren't in uniform, since white men in desert pattern combats stick out when you're trying to blend into a crowd of Iraqis.

The MOD couldn't find their own arse with both hands. They're just as likely to have changed their story through sheer incompetence as trying to cover anything up.

The local Government had been told by the Government in Baghdad to release the soldiers back to the British. They were pissed off because they looked like cocks when the Warrior came through the wall (plus their nice Mercades' got crushed too).

 

[TAE]

The attitudes expressed in your posts are just increasing my doubt about the soldiers' innocence.

 

[Groucho]

Well we could .. perhaps .... be really naughty and ignore the ban.

As was indeed done earlier this evening by a fair crowd of peeps to mark the 5th anniversary of Brian Haw's protest. The police took no action. No arrests were made. They clearly decided that allowing the law to be blatantly broken was better than the consequences of enforcing it. Farce innit.

 

[Bigdavalad]

The attitudes expressed in your posts are just increasing my doubt about the soldiers' innocence.

I'm sorry, what attitude?

That the IP are useless and corrupt? They are

That the MOD are incompetent (and possibly corrupt)? They are (see Eurofighter, Nimrod Mk. 2, Bowman and FRES as examples of incompetence)

That the local Governor was pissed off because the Army rescued the soldiers? He apparently was

That there could have been an reason why the SAS (if they were indeed SAS) shot the policemen? There could have been

 

[TAE]

That the IP are useless and corrupt? They are

So it's ok to open fire on them? That's what the soldiers were accused of.

That the MOD are incompetent (and possibly corrupt)? They are (see Eurofighter, Nimrod Mk. 2, Bowman and FRES as examples of incompetence)

So I'm right to take their official version with a pinch of salt and be skeptical.

That the local Governor was pissed off because the Army rescued the soldiers? He apparently was

Because the soldiers had been rescued from militias holding them? Why would that piss him off. Or was it indeed the iraqi authorities who were holding them, and that's why the iraqi authorities were pissed off?

That there could have been an reason why the SAS (if they were indeed SAS) shot the policemen? There could have been

I already agreed that 'there could have been'.

However, it seems equally possible that one or more random iraqi police officers were killed because they were about to blow the soldier's cover. If a bunch of young men in civilian clothes opened fire on an regular iraqi policeman and got away, it would simply have been reported as another insurgency attack.

And as has been pointed out before, taking part in military operations without wearing a uniform was something for which the taleban were labeled 'illegal combatants' in Afghanistan.

 

[Bigdavalad]

So it's ok to open fire on them? That's what the soldiers were accused of.

If they did something to make the British soldiers fire on them, yes.

So I'm right to take their official version with a pinch of salt and be skeptical.

Maybe, I've no idea what happened. I'd believe the MOD over any Iraqi official, just.

Because the soldiers had been rescued from militias holding them? Why would that piss him off. Or was it indeed the iraqi authorities who were holding them, and that's why the iraqi authorities were pissed off?

No idea. Maybe it pissed him off because he's working for the militias too? I have no idea who was actually holding the soldiers captive so I don't know why he was pissed off

I already agreed that 'there could have been'.

However, it seems equally possible that one or more random iraqi police officers were killed because they were about to blow the soldier's cover. If a bunch of young men in civilian clothes opened fire on an regular iraqi policeman and got away, it would simply have been reported as another insurgency attack.

And as has been pointed out before, taking part in military operations without wearing a uniform was something for which the taleban were labeled 'illegal combatants' in Afghanistan.

There's more than not having a uniform to make someone an 'illegal combatant' - there's a website that gives a simple explanation of the Geneva Conventions, I'll try and find it.

 

[TAE]

The local Governor working for the militias - priceless.

 

[david dissadent]

The local Governor working for the militias - priceless.

True the governor is not working for the millitias becuase the Fadillah Party millitia are working for the governor Mohammed al-Waili. He is part of a party that has militias in the police and battles between forces loyal to Fadillah, SCIRI and Sadrists are common in Basra.

 

[TAE]

Looks like the Iraqi government is not too happy with the US either:

Iraqi government reject US Ishaqi findings

 

[Aldebaran]

If you'd had to convoy all the new police cars from Kuwait up to Basra so they could sell them off to the militia to use to attack you or if you'd been ambushed by people in police uniform (as plenty have) then you'd want to to shoot the useless corrupt bastards too.

If your country was invaded and occupied by a foreign army with everything that came and still comes to it in Iraq, I suppose you would be out on killing as much as possible of them, using every method you can think of, I suppose?

So because some people attack the invaders of their country using police uniforms, all Iraqi police men are "corrupt bastards"?
Well my apologies for the language, but since you are used to it and find it a normal way of speach: To me you come across as a corrupt murderous bastard.

salaam.
(not that I think that owuld be your desire)

 

[Aldebaran]

There's more than not having a uniform to make someone an 'illegal combatant' - there's a website that gives a simple explanation of the Geneva Conventions, I'll try and find it.

Actually these days only the US-invented interpretation of the word shapes the delusional US mindset about this.
By the way: You should have studied the Geneva Conventions long before you ever went to Iraq (if you were ever there).

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

It does make you wonder just how many more massacres have been perpetrated by the US troops out there. I guess a lot more.

What you get to know is only the tip of the iceberg. Not even that.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

You have to understand the way Iraq actually works to see why 'our boys' could have been in the right.

Yet an other foreign-soldier-self-declared-expert. They come in all sorts on every message board where you see US'ers and UK'ers.

Please educate me.

salaam.

 

[Bigdavalad]

If your country was invaded and occupied by a foreign army with everything that came and still comes to it in Iraq, I suppose you would be out on killing as much as possible of them, using every method you can think of, I suppose?

So because some people attack the invaders of their country using police uniforms, all Iraqi police men are "corrupt bastards"?
Well my apologies for the language, but since you are used to it and find it a normal way of speach: To me you come across as a corrupt murderous bastard.

salaam.
(not that I think that owuld be your desire)

They get the police cars and uniforms from somewhere. Since I don't remember seeing any Kia dealerships in Basra (the new police cars we bought for them were Kias IIRC), where did they get the police cars from? Where did they get police uniforms from?

 

[Bigdavalad]

Actually these days only the US-invented interpretation of the word shapes the delusional US mindset about this.
By the way: You should have studied the Geneva Conventions long before you ever went to Iraq (if you were ever there).

salaam.

I was there and we get a presentation on the Law Of Armed Combat every year as part of our ITD (Individual Training Directive) training. If you a discussion on what consitutes an illegal combatant then we can.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Yet an other foreign-soldier-self-declared-expert. They come in all sorts on every message board where you see US'ers and UK'ers.

Please educate me.

salaam.

I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, I'm saying that unless you understand how things are in Iraq right now then you cannot understand why British soldiers may have reason to shoot a policeman. I'm assuming you're an Iraqi? If you are then you would quite clearly know much more about Iraq than I do, I'm talking based on my experiences there.

Salaam alaikum (and believe it or not, I would love to be able to live in peace).

 

[Aldebaran]

They get the police cars and uniforms from somewhere.

Everyone can freely buy every uniform in the shops of the uniform makers. There is a city quarter full of them in Bagdad alone = the workplaces and shops of the people who already made police and military uniforms for the Saddam regime (rank signs are "officially" not available but of course you can buy them everywhere too).
Latest I heard was that the "government" forcibly wants to close the shops = simply cutting off the income of all those who work there and all those who own them and all those who depend on their earnings. After the crimes of Bremer a few hundreds of jobless Iraqis more probably looks to them like a drop of water on a hot plate.
Word goes that the "government" or the USA plans "new uniforms" who "can't be copied". No sign that the uniform makers in Iraq shall get that job to replace what they are said to loose. (and "can't be copied"? Don't let me laugh. It probably shall take no more then a week before you see them all over the place.)

As for cars: You don't think there are cars available in Iraq? You don't think some of the "new police" might sell a new car to get food on the table in a family of 10 to 20 persons (or more) and where he is the only one who finally has a "job"?
Maybe some of them really are optimistic, mean well and think they can force a change, but I imagine that most of them do it because there simply *are* no other jobs. They are used as cannon fodder by and for the US troops. A clever cynical strategy, isn't it. Create the greatest mess possible first and then let "the locals" (poorly armed at that) clean it up as storm troops for "our boys" who can stay low.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I was there and we get a presentation on the Law Of Armed Combat every year as part of our ITD (Individual Training Directive) training. If you a discussion on what consitutes an illegal combatant then we can.

Not if you start with a claim that the US has a legally valid definition thereof.
Getting "a presentation" is not enough to be and stay aware of the articles of the Geneva conventions when you are plunged into the stress of a combat situation.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm assuming you're an Iraqi?

No I'm not. My nanny, who replaced my mother (she died when I was a child) was. My apologies that I come across as a bit harsh when I reply to posts of soldiers who were (or are) there. I have my reasons to be emotional.

I'm talking based on my experiences there.

Iraq is a very diverse country with a mix of ethnicies, patterns of tribal connections that influence and intertwine with everything and religious influences that aren't even always visible. (like all the rest the religious factor becomes more and more visible and influencial by the day). Hence confusing enough to outsiders "as it is". Let alone in the state it is now.

Since we were talking about "the new Iraqi army". I am really absolutely stunned and shocked that nobody in the occupying armies seemed (and seems) to have awareness of all these factors, who come in together with the recrutes. (I don't even speak of the former Saddam supporters mingling in that group.)
It comes across as if they aimed to set up an army of fire-crackers but it came loaded it with explosives.

Salaam alaikum (and believe it or not, I would love to be able to live in peace).

alaikum wa salaam.

 

[Idris2002]

Question for Bigdavalad: Do you see any parallels between the Basra area now, and Northern Ireland after 1969? When you were over there, did anyone make the connection?

I remember back in 2003, some in the media were saying that you lads would have an easier time of it, given that you had the NI experience to inform your strategy, something the yanks would lack. Doesn't seem to have turned out like that.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Not if you start with a claim that the US has a legally valid definition thereof.
Getting "a presentation" is not enough to be and stay aware of the articles of the Geneva conventions when you are plunged into the stress of a combat situation.

salaam.

Sorry for the delay replying, I'm just back from three weeks on exercise.

I never claimed that the US did - I'm British and the British Army does (and generally sticks to it).

The fact that British soldiers breaking the conventions is rare (particularly given the number of allegations against US servicemen) shows that this training (and the reactive training that has been standard for NI for many years) does help. I have no idea about US methods compared to ours, but if the allegations prove to be true (I haven't seen much news in the last three weeks, but I assume they're still being investigated?) then they either don't have a good enough training directive for Geneva Conventions or the units themselves aren't carrying that training out properly (or they are and the soldiers involved are ignoring them).

 

[Bigdavalad]

Question for Bigdavalad: Do you see any parallels between the Basra area now, and Northern Ireland after 1969? When you were over there, did anyone make the connection?

I remember back in 2003, some in the media were saying that you lads would have an easier time of it, given that you had the NI experience to inform your strategy, something the yanks would lack. Doesn't seem to have turned out like that.

I can see the comparison given the religious tension (although I was in NI 2000 - 2002 so it was a lot quieter than in the bad old days). I don't remember anyone 'officially' comparing it to NI, but I suppose they must have.

At first the NI experience helped, because our soldiers learned to be a lot more 'local friendly' than most others have to be, but our downfall came mostly due to American activity in the north of the country - I was there just after an attack on a mosque (summer 2004 - not long after the Daily Mirror pictures of 'abuse' appeared too) and we got absolutely battered for a while in retaliation (80 odd mortar/RPG/Katyusha attacks on the camp I was on in three weeks, and a similar amount on the camps either side of us). If we'd have been trying to control Belfast in the 1970s and the US had been attacking Catholic chapels in Londonderry, then maybe our experience there wouldn't have been as smooth as it was (and it could have been a lot worse all round than it actually was).

Unfortunately (both for us and the normal Iraqi living in Basra) now, the damage has been done to our position and I doubt that we will ever get back to how it was in the early days of our time there.

 

[Aldebaran]

I can see the comparison given the religious tension (although I was in NI 2000 - 2002 so it was a lot quieter than in the bad old days). I don't remember anyone 'officially' comparing it to NI, but I suppose they must have.

A comparison between these situations is in my view not even possible and not only because of the cultural gap. If there is already no comparison possible between these cultures, religions and its political influences, in addition - as far as as I know - NI is purely politics covered with the cloack of a religious difference while in Iraq you see always existing, yet under saddam very well controlled and tolerated religious differences surfacing and administered - an often totally invented - political "meaning" to keep the fire burning.

The UK military indeed has experiences other armies lack but the reason why this "helped" in Iraq is because of the UK's history (colonial= occupational) both in the very same region and elswhere.You see the influences of that experience everywhere the UK military operates.

I don't think the "damage" to the "position" of the UK soldiers in Iraq can be even remotely compared to what people feel towards the US military.
Of course the longer this goes on, the worse it shall get for the UK soldiers too. The foreign armies should praise themselves very lucky that Iraqis were used to the reality of living under a dictatorship. This "normal" fear to oppose brutalities of a regime (and in todays situations the intimidations, brutalities and murders of the invaders) held many back of open resistance to the invaders/occupyers and probably it still plays a great role below the surface.

salaam.