Bastard Housing Association Leaving Me With No Heating!

[Mapped]

Glad the OP got the problem sorted pretty quickly, I've been in the same boat all weekend plus no electic, and my bastard landlord won't answer my calls

I got a call from the landlords on Friday saying that they were re-wiring the block I live in and needed access to our flat to finish the job. They said the contractors were there and had a key to get into my flat to do the job if that was alright. I said no and that they could do it some time over the weekend or monday whn I was in, as I have had stuff stolen by thier contractors previously. They said fine and they would come and do the job on monday.

I get home on Friday night to find that they had cut the main electricity cable coming into my flat so no light, power or heat My landlords are an Orthodox Jewish family business so they don't answer the phone over the sabbath (they should have some emergency number for the weekend, but don't ) so we knew we were stuck with the situation all weekend.

Anyhow, luckily, they installed a socket just outside my door in the communal area on friday, so I rushed down to Woolies for fan heaters, extension cables and lamps and I'm powering everything off that socket outside.

However it's not having hot water that is doing my head in, I haven't had a shower all weekend and I had 3 people staying on Friday/Sat and we'd all been out dancing to the Chemical Bros so it was a bit minging. I'm going to go round to a mate's in a bit for a hot shower, but in the meantime we are being very un-environmentally freindly by having the fan heaters cranked up to keep us warm.

They are going to get an earful when I see them on Monday. Is it legal to deliberately cut off someone's power without even telling them?

 

[equationgirl]

Check the terms of your rental agreement. That's pretty crap though.

 

[oryx]

I reiterate, no-one should be without heating or hot water at this time of year.

I'm talking about central heating - I wouldn't expect anyone to be without heating! Even cavemen rubbed two sticks together & made a fire.....

If you've misunderstood that, fairy 'nuff. To anyone who thinks making someone live without central heating for a few days is a crime against humanity - what the hell do you think people did before central heating was standard in most people's homes?

N1 Buoy - I think cutting off your electricity like that is probably grounds to go to the tenancy relations bods at your local council.

 

[scifisam]

mmmmm, interesting....Peabody's handbook says 7 days on another page! No wonder its tenants & staff are confused!

I know there are several HAs who class heating loss, even it winter, as something that is not an emergency. I suspect that a) the Right to Repair is not a statutory obligation for RSLs as opposed to local authorities, though the Housing Corporation recommend it as good practice and b) it does not impose stauutory repair times on landlords outside of its own context.

If it did, I suspect most social landlords would be bankrupt by now!

The Right to Repair is rarely used by tenants, or their lawyers. I wonder why.

And nothing's convincing me that (unless you're old or ill) going without central heating for a few days isn't bearable. I have lived in two places (private rented/squat) with no integral heating whatsoever, for considerably more than a few days and made do with an assortment of lecky heaters, open fires and those dodgy free-standing gas heaters.

No, it's not optional, it's the law.

From the page I linked to:

The Housing Corporation requires RSL’s in England to implement the Corporation’s policy on Right to Repair, but no equivalent obligation exists in Wales.

They're required to implement the Right to Repair policy - it's part of their status as social landlords. The Right to Repair policy is also very specific about repair times; it's all right there in the document I linked to.

Like I said, I've coped before too. Well, kinda; I did get very ill.

But why should anyone have to cope with substandard conditions? We're hardly a poor country. Expecting landlords to fix heating and hot water systems - that tenants are not allowed to fix themselves - is hardly wishing for an unattainable Utopia.

@N1 Buoy - that's awful - no power or anything at all! I wish I had some more constructive advice or help to give, other than going for a swim or to the gym and having a long shower afterwards.

 

[scifisam]

I'm talking about central heating - I wouldn't expect anyone to be without heating! Even cavemen rubbed two sticks together & made a fire.....

If you've misunderstood that, fairy 'nuff. To anyone who thinks making someone live without central heating for a few days is a crime against humanity - what the hell do you think people did before central heating was standard in most people's homes?

They had access to other forms of heating, such as real fires or coal fires, which most people don't have access to these days. Also, a lot more people died from the cold.

 

[Guineveretoo]

No, it's not optional, it's the law.

From the page I linked to:

The Housing Corporation requires RSL’s in England to implement the Corporation’s policy on Right to Repair, but no equivalent obligation exists in Wales.

They're required to implement the Right to Repair policy - it's part of their status as social landlords. The Right to Repair policy is also very specific about repair times; it's all right there in the document I linked to.

Like I said, I've coped before too. Well, kinda; I did get very ill.

But why should anyone have to cope with substandard conditions? We're hardly a poor country. Expecting landlords to fix heating and hot water systems - that tenants are not allowed to fix themselves - is hardly wishing for an unattainable Utopia.

@N1 Buoy - that's awful - no power or anything at all! I wish I had some more constructive advice or help to give, other than going for a swim or to the gym and having a long shower afterwards.

Just because the Housing Corporation require some landlords to follow the regulations, doesn't mean the law applies to them, so I am afraid there is no legal comeback under those regulations.

You could and should still complain, though, if only to ensure they get it right another time. But don't waste your time complaining under the law, because that would be easy for the landlord and their agency to respond to.

 

[bluestreak]

I would still complain.

There is no way anyone could think it's ok to leave ANYBODY without heating or hot water during the winter months.

and if you want to know anything about peabody trust's complaints system you could always pm the person on here who used to be their quality assurance officer and was responsible for monitoring the complaints system. i'm sure i... uh... he could provide you with some advice

 

[oryx]

They had access to other forms of heating, such as real fires or coal fires, which most people don't have access to these days. Also, a lot more people died from the cold.

But we all have access to other forms of heating in the form of electric and gas fires! Which are far more efficient than coal fires.

Guineveretoo has articulated what I was trying to say re. the law. If social landlords were legally obliged to fix heating in 24 hours, then a very large number of them would be breaking the law, and I'm not aware they are.

 

[bluestreak]

They are going to get an earful when I see them on Monday. Is it legal to deliberately cut off someone's power without even telling them?

Not unless there's a damn good reason - i.e. fire safety etc. Your landlords are breaking a number of laws. However I think in this day and age it's probably more of a criminal offence to complain about it. You'd think tenants were the scum of the earth the way the state treats them these days.

 

[bluestreak]

That'll be for calls outside of the heating season. Peabody is a joke, they're staffed by idiots and run by a greedy incompetent.

Believe me, they're not. The guy running them these days is significantly better than the last guy. Though he is on over 100K a year! Even within the organisation the last chap is spoken of as a fucking moron. This chap has basically done bloody well to improve the Trust from failing to showing signs of improvement according to the Audit Commission.

Peabody Direct is the Call Centre. The aim is to get it staffed by people are going to stay, and to this end they're paid more than normal call centre staff. When I worked there this was about 75% permanent so it's by no means ideal. Quite a few complaints were about call centre staff getting things wrong. But this happens - it's worth complaining about because it DOES lead to retraining and reiteration of repair times etc.

 

[scifisam]

Just because the Housing Corporation require some landlords to follow the regulations, doesn't mean the law applies to them, so I am afraid there is no legal comeback under those regulations.

You could and should still complain, though, if only to ensure they get it right another time. But don't waste your time complaining under the law, because that would be easy for the landlord and their agency to respond to.

Law is perhaps not the right word. Regulation, maybe? But it is a requirement - it's not optional for the social landlords (and it is ALL social landlords in England, not just some); it is binding, and there are potential repercussions for the SLR.

The potential comeback is that, according to the regulations on the link I gave and on several other sites online, residents can ask for compensation if the repair isn't completed in time, and, from the looks of it, as long as the repair really does fall under those listed in the Right to Repair policy, the HA would have to give them compensation. Even the amounts of compensation are listed in the Right to Repair scheme documents. That doesn't apply to me in this instance - I'm just talking about the way this scheme works.

I am going to complain because, even if it weren't for this scheme, Peabody's own rules make it clear that the guy on the phone was wrong. I wasn't going to complain in a legal sense anyway - mainly because the repairman did come out within 24 hours after I went through the emergency repair line instead of the daytime one.

Even if it had taken longer, I know what I'm like, and I know that I'd be very unlikely to ever do anything other than send an email to them.

The repair man was excellent, actually, and I'll be telling the HA that too.

It's a really awful boiler, so he couldn't fix it properly, and I am worried that it'll break down over Christmas (which would be wonderful - we have 8 people staying over, and the lack of hot water would be slightly problematic! I'm actually going to speak to my next-door-neighbour and see if we could use her bath if that happened, as a back-up-plan).

Course, we'll have fan heaters too, but you can't leave those on overnight, which is when asthmatics (like me and my daughter) tend to have breathing problems. I have a timer switch that I use for the lights when we're away - perhaps that would work for the fan heater too, if need be. Shame we can't get a calor gas heater - they're lovely.

All the repair people I've come into contact with through this HA have been excellent, actually, and I've always made a point of letting the HA know that.

 

[oryx]

However I think in this day and age it's probably more of a criminal offence to complain about it. You'd think tenants were the scum of the earth the way the state treats them these days.

Private tenants' (as I'm assuming N1 Bouy is) rights are poor in comparison to those of social housing tenants. In terms of getting things like repairs done, consultation, access to low-cost home ownership, the imposition of the decent home statndard, reasonable rents & so on they are in a much poorer position, and they also lack someone to complain to. Private landlords are not regulated like councils and HAs are, & private tenants suffer for that.

However, I would refute that the state treats them like scum, although I've no doubt there are plenty of private landlords who do.

 

[scifisam]

Peabody Direct is the Call Centre. The aim is to get it staffed by people are going to stay, and to this end they're paid more than normal call centre staff. When I worked there this was about 75% permanent so it's by no means ideal. Quite a few complaints were about call centre staff getting things wrong. But this happens - it's worth complaining about because it DOES lead to retraining and reiteration of repair times etc.

That's why I'm going to complain. It sounds like the guy I spoke to was simply working from old documentation and was, for some reason, prepared to believe that rather than the trust's own handbook. That should be easy enough to rectify.

Then, if someone's boiler breaks down on Christmas Eve when the shops are shut, they won't be left without heating and hot water through a time when they won't be able to access alternatives. Or, if it's too difficult to get someone out on Christmas Day, at least they'd know there'd be someone out by Boxing Day.

@Oryx - I agree about private tenants' rights being woefully low. But that doesn't mean that social housing tenants should somehow lose their rights. The other way round would be better.

Please read the documents I linked to - you're utterly wrong about there being no obligation on the landlord to treat loss of heating and hot water as an emergency (at this time of year).

Fan heaters and electric heaters cost a lot to buy and run, and they can't be left on overnight. Kettles can be boiled for washing up, but it takes an hour and a half to fill a bath with kettles and saucepans (that's how long it took in my childhood house that had no hot water, anyway).

You seem to think I'm being fussy for wanting overnight heating and the ability to have a bath.

 

[bluestreak]

Scifisam, make a formal complaint using peabody's website - if you don't get any answer at all within 3 days go straight to the Chief Exec. You won't talk to him but you will get directed through to the Quality Assurance Manager or Officer, who will chase up the officer who is dealing and either force them to deal with it or move it to the next stage for handling by a manager. i doubt you'll get anything more than a formal apology from the call centre manager but you never know.

 

[oryx]

@Oryx - I agree about private tenants' rights being woefully low. But that doesn't mean that social housing tenants should somehow lose their rights. The other way round would be better.

Please read the documents I linked to - you're utterly wrong about there being no obligation on the landlord to treat loss of heating and hot water as an emergency (at this time of year).

Fan heaters and electric heaters cost a lot to buy and run, and they can't be left on overnight. Kettles can be boiled for washing up, but it takes an hour and a half to fill a bath with kettles and saucepans (that's how long it took in my childhood house that had no hot water, anyway).

You seem to think I'm being fussy for wanting overnight heating and the ability to have a bath.

No, I don't think you're fussy - I would just not class it as an emergency. To me that's something like what the people who suffered floods went thought this year.

I just think HA/council tenants get a very good deal compared to private tenants and less well-off homeowners. Of course their rights should be the same, good rights.

I'd hazard a guess that most people who will die of hypothermia this winter will be elderly homeowners or private tenants who don't have adequate heating, and it's those people who my sympathy lies with, not HA tenants.

 

[bluestreak]

http://www.peabody.org.uk/pages/GetPage.aspx?id=90

complaints - you can complain via that. the QAO receives this rather than any farty and allocates to the appropriate officer and monitors response. At least they did when I was in charge of it.

 

[bluestreak]

Actually I agree with oryx, having dealt with complaints from HA tenants I'm often shocked at what they expect provided from them, services which private tenants don't get despite paying more in rent and receiving less. This isn't to say you're unreasonable scifisam, more that the law recognises your rights and needs over ours. Private landlords do have obligations, but most tenants can't afford to push for them legally, whereas HAs can lose funding or even their right to be HAs if they don't deal with repairs, rent issues, complaints, stand of living etc. HA tenants are in many ways much better off than their peers in teh private sector.

 

[oryx]

Actually I agree with oryx, having dealt with complaints from HA tenants I'm often shocked at what they expect provided from them, services which private tenants don't get despite paying more in rent and receiving less. This isn't to say you're unreasonable scifisam, more that the law recognises your rights and needs over ours. Private landlords do have obligations, but most tenants can't afford to push for them legally, whereas HAs can lose funding or even their right to be HAs if they don't deal with repairs, rent issues, complaints, stand of living etc. HA tenants are in many ways much better off than their peers in teh private sector.

Absolutely, years of being a private tenant and council/HA worker probably drove me to being a hard as nails old oryx who could give Monty Python's Four Yorkshireman a run for their money on hard times stories.

Seriously, the imbalance of tenants' rights is a serious problem. When I used to be a private tenant I found it intensely annoying that I had serious neighbour noise nuisance, which no-one would do anything about. Now if I was a HA tenant, I could have gone to the ombudsman & got me £2000 compensation for maladministration........

 

[scifisam]

@Oryx - fine, we'll agree to disagree. I think not having heating and hot water is an emergency when the temperature is so low. The particular time of year makes it more of an emergency - any repair which now needs doing within a week isn't going to get done till after Christmas, realistically.

Your sympathy could lie with anyone who loses their source of heating, surely? You can't have so little sympathy that it can only be shared amongst a small group? Maybe working with HAs has left you with bad feelings against their tenants - I could almost understand that!

I guess your opinion would probably change if you knew that I had fairly bad asthma, and my daughter also has breathing problems, because the cold really does affect those conditions. (I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but my posts are so stupidly long that you might not have noticed )

I hope you concede that you were wrong with your suspicions about it being optional for HAs to treat loss of heating and hot water as an emergency.

Actually I agree with oryx, having dealt with complaints from HA tenants I'm often shocked at what they expect provided from them, services which private tenants don't get despite paying more in rent and receiving less. This isn't to say you're unreasonable scifisam, more that the law recognises your rights and needs over ours. Private landlords do have obligations, but most tenants can't afford to push for them legally, whereas HAs can lose funding or even their right to be HAs if they don't deal with repairs, rent issues, complaints, stand of living etc. HA tenants are in many ways much better off than their peers in teh private sector.

Yes, mainly because the government can control SLRs more - they can make them provide these things as part of their agreement when becoming social landlords, whereas private landlords are thousands (millions?) of private individuals.

To be fair, I got a HA association flat because I was in priority need. The same applies to most HA tenants. So, in a way, they should be treated differently to private tenants as a whole. Private tenants with priority needs should also have greater rights - but then, I guess, it'd be even harder for them to find a place to rent. Thus it would be better for all private tenants to be given more rights - ones which actually mean something and aren't so difficult to chase up that nobody ever bothers.

I am not going to feel bad about having rights which others should have. I feel bad that they don't have those rights, not bad that I do. The change that should happen is for private tenants' rights to be increased across the board, not for social tenants to lose their rights.

Similarly, I wish that everyone in the world had enough to eat, but don't feel guilty for having dinner. If someone else were starving, then I wouldn't expect them to have a go at me because I was lucky enough to have food.

I'll use that link to complain by - thanks Bluestreak. I'm not even that fussed about getting an apology, just an assurance that the correct guidelines have now been issued.

 

[nino_savatte]

Believe me, they're not. The guy running them these days is significantly better than the last guy. Though he is on over 100K a year! Even within the organisation the last chap is spoken of as a fucking moron. This chap has basically done bloody well to improve the Trust from failing to showing signs of improvement according to the Audit Commission.

Peabody Direct is the Call Centre. The aim is to get it staffed by people are going to stay, and to this end they're paid more than normal call centre staff. When I worked there this was about 75% permanent so it's by no means ideal. Quite a few complaints were about call centre staff getting things wrong. But this happens - it's worth complaining about because it DOES lead to retraining and reiteration of repair times etc.

As a Peabody tenant, I think I'm fairly well qualified to comment. I think that since they closed the estate offices, things have gone downhill at an alarming rate. Howlett is a free marketeer who has sold off plenty of the Trust's assets and privatised the caretaking function. The caretakers have now been relegated to the status of cleaner. In fact, the caretakers on my estate have all left.

 

[oryx]

I hope you concede that you were wrong with your suspicions about it being optional for HAs to treat loss of heating and hot water as an emergency.

No, because I don't think I am! - there is no statutory obligation for HAs to carry out any repairs in a certain time.

see the Housing Corporation's residents' charter, pages 5 & 16 - 'must' and 'should'. Several HAs who publish response times on their websites don't do heating breakdonws in 24 hours, even in winter.

http://www.housingcorp.gov.uk/upload/pdf/Charter_for_HA_applicants_residents_20071003112048.pdf

Check with a lawyer if you don't believe me!

But it's good you got it sorted quickly, anyway.

 

[scifisam]

I don't believe you when 40 other links say that SLRs have to sign up to the Right to Repair scheme, and the Right to Repair scheme lays out rules for what constitutes an emergency repair.

But fine - you think that your source means more than mine, and I cannot be arsed arguing with you any more.

 

[oryx]

Naah - beg to differ, innit.

 

[bluestreak]

Seriously, the imbalance of tenants' rights is a serious problem. When I used to be a private tenant I found it intensely annoying that I had serious neighbour noise nuisance, which no-one would do anything about. Now if I was a HA tenant, I could have gone to the ombudsman & got me £2000 compensation for maladministration........

Yo'd be surprised how often the Ombudsman don't find maladministration, let alone insist on major compensation. I've only seen it twice in two years of performance management in HAs.

You're also right about the repair times - like the document you posted states, while they are legally obliged to make repairs (there is a minimum standard that many residents don't necessarily agree is suitable) it is merely good practice to publish deadlines and stick to them.

Peabody do publish deadlines, and they should stick to them. If they fail to do that you may get compensation. It is unlikely you'll get much (if at all) if they fix it within a few days though.

 

[bluestreak]

What is Right to Repair?
The Right to Repair scheme is a Citizens’

Charter initiative, the object of which is to
ensure that Housing Executive tenants have
urgent, minor repairs which might affect their
health, safety or security, completed quickly
by Executive contractors and at no cost to
the tenant. If such repairs are not carried out
within the predetermined time periods,
tenants can request that the Executive issues
the work to another Executive contractor. If
the second contractor fails to complete the
repair within the second predetermined
time periods the tenant may be entitled to
an initial compensation sum of £10.00 with
further sums of £2.00 per day for each day
that the repair remains uncompleted. The
maximum sum for compensation under the
Right to Repair scheme is £50.00
What repairs are included in Right
to Repair?
Whenever a tenant reports a repair to their
local District Office the staff there will
assess the nature and the degree of urgency
of the repair. Where the repair is classified
as either an Emergency or Urgent repair in
accordance with the Executive’s Classification
of Repairs procedure, it will be considered
as a “qualifying repair” under the conditions
of the Right to Repair scheme. Qualifying
repairs will be carried out within 24 hours
if they are classified as emergency work
or, within four working days if classified as
urgent. Some repairs may need to be
inspected before a decision can be made.

 

[bluestreak]

This doesn;t contradict what oryx's document states.

 

[bluestreak]

Also, RTR is stricter on Council Landlords rather than HAs

 

[bluestreak]

Hmmm, Peabody's handbooks says seven days?

Urgent – within seven days
(for an immediate threat to contents or the
building, and major disruption to residents)
For example:
• failure of space and water heating; and
• leaking soil pipes outside the properties.

 

[bluestreak]

That's pretty harsh.

 

[scifisam]

N1 Buoy, how did it go with sorting your heating out today? Any luck?

That doesn't contradict what my cites say (your quote, Bluestreak). It says pretty much the same things as my sources, in fact. The disagreement lies in whether the Right to Repair scheme is obligatory or not. But I am just too tired to go through it all again right now, to be honest.

Hmmm, Peabody's handbooks says seven days?

Urgent – within seven days
(for an immediate threat to contents or the
building, and major disruption to residents)
For example:
• failure of space and water heating; and
• leaking soil pipes outside the properties.

Not in Winter. Nino posted it up earlier:

Emergency – to be made safe within 24 hours
For example:
• total loss of electric power;
• total loss of mains water;
• no heating between 1 November and 30 April;
• backflow from a main drain;
• a blocked toilet if it is the only one in the property (we may charge
you for this);
• burst plumbing (if you cannot stop the flood by turning off the water
stopcock); and
• boarding up unsafe doors and windows.
http://www.peabody.org.uk/Filestore/...HandbookEN.pdf

The HA called back today and spoke to my partner. They're going to listen to the phone calls and follow my complaint up. I'm glad I stayed so calm through the calls.