Basic Welsh . . .

[llantwit]

More importantly those people who are bilingual tend to learn one or other world language in addition to their own tongues. Thankfully the vast majority of Welsh people have a world language as their mother tongue.
Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.

I agree.
My heart says that the only way that the language can be saved is if people want to learn it, not if they're forced to by teachers/legislators.
That said, only a concerted piece of language planning such as that which resurected Hebrew in Israel will really breathe life back into Welsh.
Still, that doesn't mean forcing people to learn it, it means creating the colective urge in the population to learn it and use it.
I can't see that happening. My 'Welshness', whatever the fuck it is, is nothing to do with the language.

 

[Brockway]

Just out of curiosuity where did you fnd the statistic that 75% of the population are bilingual? Or did you just make it up?

More importantly those people who are bilingual tend to learn one or other world language in addition to their own tongues. Thankfully the vast majority of Welsh people have a world language as their mother tongue.

Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.

It was on the radio the other day - they were saying that statistically it's unusual to be monoglot. That on the continent it's normal to be bilingual and in Africa, for example, it's common for people to speak a handful of languages. I'm not making it up.

I agree that forcing people to learn another language when they are a teenager or adult is pointless. By that age it's already a daunting prospect. That's why it should be compulsory to start learning Welsh in tandem with English as soon as kids enter school. That way it is a natural process and no different than say learning your times-tables.

 

[Brockway]

I agree.
My heart says that the only way that the language can be saved is if people want to learn it, not if they're forced to by teachers/legislators.
That said, only a concerted piece of language planning such as that which resurected Hebrew in Israel will really breathe life back into Welsh.
Still, that doesn't mean forcing people to learn it, it means creating the colective urge in the population to learn it and use it.
I can't see that happening. My 'Welshness', whatever the fuck it is, is nothing to do with the language.

Can you remember in infant and junior school thinking: "I wish these bastards would stop forcing me to count and spell." ? Nor me, which is why kids should be learning Welsh from the earliest possible age.

You're right no point in forcing teenagers and adults to learn another language - it only causes resentment. Even worse to penalise them in the jobs market.

 

[neprimerimye]

It was on the radio the other day - they were saying that statistically it's unusual to be monoglot. That on the continent it's normal to be bilingual and in Africa, for example, it's common for people to speak a handful of languages. I'm not making it up.

I agree that forcing people to learn another language when they are a teenager or adult is pointless. By that age it's already a daunting prospect. That's why it should be compulsory to start learning Welsh in tandem with English as soon as kids enter school. That way it is a natural process and no different than say learning your times-tables.

Yes I agree that it is far more common in many other countries for people to be bilingual but the statistic itself is what i question. For example most Chinese are monolingual as are most Americans. And while speakers of the more widely spoken indigenous tongues on South America usually speak some Spainish they are not properly bilingual.

So maybe we need to ask why are some peoples bilingua and others not? I would suggest that in regions that are multi-ethnic or multi-national in complexion that some degree of bilingualism is normal. Unless there is a long standing hostility between the specific groups when any relations will tend to break down. It can also be argued that bilingualism is widespread as a result of knowledge of a second language being succesfully encouraged by the state and the educational system which, as a general rule, will only apply in the developed countries if not in the Anglophone ones. Lastly I woul argue that bilingualism has developed in many countries as a result of the economic domination of science and technology, itslef based on econnomic domination and this imperialism of course, by one or more countries. Thus the widespread use of Latin in the past and now the massive learning of English in almost all of Eurasia.

I'll come back on the teaching of Welsh from three later.

 

[llantwit]

Who's gonna *teach* Welsh as a first language to all from the age of 3 ffs?
They already have to learn it in infant school and up to the age of 16 as a foreign language.
Like you rightly say, to force adults to learn to speak welsh would be pointless, and only cause resentment. But that's what you'd have to do with current teachers, unless you wanted to only allow welsh speakers to become teachers in Wales from now on (which would be a rather mental bit of authoritarian social engineering, I'm sure you'd agree).

 

[niclas]

Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.

Parent pressure (mainly from non-Welsh speaking households) forced councils across Wales to provide bilingual education. This was particularly the case in Anglicised areas like the Valleys and NE Wales.
So it's quite the opposite to the inference here - people fought for bilingual education rather than having it "forced" on them.
I say "bilingual" because in my "Welsh-medium" secondary school, we were given the option of taking subjects in either language at CSE, O and A level. It was the language of the school that was Welsh, and of course we all rebelled against that by speaking English.

 

[Brockway]

The statistic comes from the Beeb - the item was about the benefits of language learning generally rather than being specifically about Welsh.

China has three languages I think.

Whatever the underlying economic, social, and historical reasons why people in 75% of the world can speak at least 2 languages - the fact is they CAN. So there is no reason why we in Wales can't be fully bilingual too. A comprehensive programme of bilingual education ought to be easy to set up.

As far as the current decline in the Welsh language is concerned the biggest villains are the Welsh-speaking middle-classes - the Pontcanna-ites and their ilk. They ought to be a powerful lobby for the language but they only really pay lip-service to it. The status quo suits them very nicely thank you, as their 'special status' enables them to rake in the grants - so why kill the golden goose?

Just imagine how vibrant Welsh culture would become if people from Ely to Rhyl were allowed to compete for jobs in Welsh broadcasting and the arts. At the moment most Welsh people are excluded from determining what Welsh culture is which is why we have a nepotistic and mediocre culture. A fully bilingual system from day 1 at school would eradicate this at a stroke and be a massive boost for Wales.

Bring it on, I say.

 

[Brockway]

Who's gonna *teach* Welsh as a first language to all from the age of 3 ffs?
They already have to learn it in infant school and up to the age of 16 as a foreign language.
Like you rightly say, to force adults to learn to speak welsh would be pointless, and only cause resentment. But that's what you'd have to do with current teachers, unless you wanted to only allow welsh speakers to become teachers in Wales from now on (which would be a rather mental bit of authoritarian social engineering, I'm sure you'd agree).

That's so negative. It wouldn't be that difficult for teachers to gain a basic competence in Welsh when teaching infants - I could probably do it now with a learn how to speak Welsh book to hand - I mean how difficult is it to learn a few basic phrases? I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect teachers to learn basic Welsh.

 

[llantwit]

OK - it's basic Welsh you're talking about.
Teachers already do learn and and teach basic Welsh if they are based in Wales.
I was assuming you wanted a fully bilingual education system with equal weight given to both languages.
That would be a whole different enterprise, I think.

 

[llantwit]

Parent pressure (mainly from non-Welsh speaking households) forced councils across Wales to provide bilingual education. This was particularly the case in Anglicised areas like the Valleys and NE Wales.
So it's quite the opposite to the inference here - people fought for bilingual education rather than having it "forced" on them.
I say "bilingual" because in my "Welsh-medium" secondary school, we were given the option of taking subjects in either language at CSE, O and A level. It was the language of the school that was Welsh, and of course we all rebelled against that by speaking English.

But it was a minority movement, wasn't it? Not some universal uprising.
It's fair enough, I think, to have the choice to send your kids to a welsh school. I don't want them to have to learn it whatever school they go to in Wales, though.

 

[llantwit]

Whatever the underlying economic, social, and historical reasons why people in 75% of the world can speak at least 2 languages - the fact is they CAN. So there is no reason why we in Wales can't be fully bilingual too. A comprehensive programme of bilingual education ought to be easy to set up.

As far as the current decline in the Welsh language is concerned the biggest villains are the Welsh-speaking middle-classes - the Pontcanna-ites and their ilk. They ought to be a powerful lobby for the language but they only really pay lip-service to it. The status quo suits them very nicely thank you, as their 'special status' enables them to rake in the grants - so why kill the golden goose?

Just imagine how vibrant Welsh culture would become if people from Ely to Rhyl were allowed to compete for jobs in Welsh broadcasting and the arts. At the moment most Welsh people are excluded from determining what Welsh culture is which is why we have a nepotistic and mediocre culture. A fully bilingual system from day 1 at school would eradicate this at a stroke and be a massive boost for Wales.

Bring it on, I say.

I think your vision of the democratic potential of people learning a language is a bit misguided, to be honest.
The kinds of (mainly) class differences that you mention would still exist if every fucker in the country could speak Welsh.
I'd rather spend my energy on exposing and fighting those class differences, than by going down some blind alley premised on a vision of the class struggle being played out in Welsh.
If I can't speak English (my mother tongue, btw) then I don't wanna be part of your revolution.

 

[niclas]

But it was a minority movement, wasn't it? Not some universal uprising.
It's fair enough, I think, to have the choice to send your kids to a welsh school. I don't want them to have to learn it whatever school they go to in Wales, though.

You learn English in a Welsh-medium school. Why shouldn't you learn Welsh in an English-medium school?

 

[llantwit]

Because I don't want to.

 

[llantwit]

I'm not a catholic, either.
If I don't want my kids to be subjected to the eucharist I send them to a non-catholic school.
If some time down the line the state turns round and says that everyone in every school has to eat the flesh of Christ, drink his blood and suck the priest's cock then I'm gonna be a bit miffed about that, too.

 

[llantwit]

You learn English in a Welsh-medium school. Why shouldn't you learn Welsh in an English-medium school?

Oh, and you learn english in a welsh school cos the kids would be pretty fucking screwed if they didn't. I've survived this long as a welshman in wales without welsh, but I doubt that many could say the same vice versa (unless they were in one of our very few majority welsh speaking communities, of course - but I'm not).

I'd like to emphasise - I'm not against kids learning welsh in school... but I wouldn't want there to be a situation where schools were totally bilingual. I think that takes it too far. But I think that's what's coming.

 

[Brockway]

OK - it's basic Welsh you're talking about.
Teachers already do learn and and teach basic Welsh if they are based in Wales.
I was assuming you wanted a fully bilingual education system with equal weight given to both languages.
That would be a whole different enterprise, I think.

No, I want fully bilingual with if anything more weight given to Welsh. But you have to start somewhere...

 

[Brockway]

I think your vision of the democratic potential of people learning a language is a bit misguided, to be honest.
The kinds of (mainly) class differences that you mention would still exist if every fucker in the country could speak Welsh.
I'd rather spend my energy on exposing and fighting those class differences, than by going down some blind alley premised on a vision of the class struggle being played out in Welsh.
If I can't speak English (my mother tongue, btw) then I don't wanna be part of your revolution.

I'm not suggesting for one second that everybody speaking Welsh will solve inequality. This is a cultural issue for me. In fact I've heard that at interviews for jobs where Welsh is required you are often asked if Welsh is your first language or learnt (the implication being that learnt is inferior). I do though think it would be a lot harder for the Crachach to determine what Welsh culture is if you could have 3 million people saying in Welsh: "actually I don't like Kathryn Jenkins or Bryn Terfyl." Saying it in English is not enough because they will always say that you are by default distanced from your own culture.

 

[llantwit]

I do though think it would be a lot harder for the Crachach to determine what Welsh culture is if you could have 3 million people saying in Welsh: "actually I don't like Kathryn Jenkins"

That's one phrase I wouldn't mind learning.
Now Bryn, of course, is another matter...

 

[bonheddwr]

Because I don't want to.

Twit by name, Twit by nature. Where's the chip on your shoulder come from? Your attitude is pathetic and childish.

Fine, deny your children their birth right, but remember one thing. Children in bilingual schools in Wales reach a much higher academic level than their counterparts in English only schools. They even get better results than the average school in England IN ENGLISH!

The more languages you speak, the easier it is to pick up others. I'd make Welsh and English compulsory from 3years old onwards, so that everyone in Wales is bilingual, and ONLY THEN would they have a choice. At the moment there is no choice. Most Welsh children are denied their right to the Welsh language.

 

[ddraig]

there's no need for that bonheddwr! and can it be taken to the 'pedantry and politico' thread for miserable naysayers please
diolch

 

[wiskey]

right i have been practicing

two questions

1) how is ddraig pronounced? is it like a welsh craig (no offence if it isnt)

and

2) i had a mate called Llyr. he taught me to pronounce it like a cross between clear and lyr (musical instrument). is that how 'll' is normally pronounced? a sort of gutteral throat clearing sound?

cheers

 

[ddraig]

right i have been practicing

two questions

1) how is ddraig pronounced? is it like a welsh craig (no offence if it isnt)

and

2) i had a mate called Llyr. he taught me to pronounce it like a cross between clear and lyr (musical instrument). is that how 'll' is normally pronounced? a sort of gutteral throat clearing sound?

cheers

lol
1) not really, ddraig is just the Welsh word for dragon, and it's more raa in the middle, the 'dd' is sort of like a buzzing sound with a d, like u were being electrocuted.
2) sort of, and yes it's a bit gutteral

 

[llantwit]

Just noticed Ddraig's other thread!
Bonheddwr - if feel like we can take it over there. That's where my answer to you is now.

 

[llantwit]

there's no need for that bonheddwr! and can it be taken to the 'pedantry and politico' thread for miserable naysayers please
diolch

Cheers, Ddraig... Note to you: I really don't want to be seen as anti-welsh language. I totally respect anyone's right to learn and speak it and hope to learn myself one day, like. I just feel strong about compulsory bilingualism as an education policy.

 

[llantwit]

No, I want fully bilingual with if anything more weight given to Welsh. But you have to start somewhere...

And what if lots of other people don't?
Are we all Uncle Sam Bachs, stupid dupes of the scheming imperialists?
No we're just people who don't really care too much about the Welsh language either way, and who aren't too keen on having their choices over the languages their kids are brought up speaking taken away from them.

 

[ddraig]

Cheers, Ddraig... Note to you: I really don't want to be seen as anti-welsh language. I totally respect anyone's right to learn and speak it and hope to learn myself one day, like. I just feel strong about compulsory bilingualism as an education policy.

i know mate, no worries, i can see both your pov but bonheddwr has gone a bit ott with his slightly 'mis-directed' passion imo and i would hate to see it turn into a full-on bunfight. bit strung out so can't read and respond properly as i'd like to atm, sori to all concerned. in the words of WoW, 'more later'

 

[Gavin Bl]

right i have been practicing

two questions

1) how is ddraig pronounced? is it like a welsh craig (no offence if it isnt)

and

2) i had a mate called Llyr. he taught me to pronounce it like a cross between clear and lyr (musical instrument). is that how 'll' is normally pronounced? a sort of gutteral throat clearing sound?

cheers

1) the DD is like a hard TH really, as in The.

2) I think this was earlier on in this or the Siarad Cymraeg thread - its like a soft TH immediately running into an L, but there is something about it which is very difficult to pinpoint precisely in English, but the above approach will get you close.

The 'throat clearing sound' I think you mean CH, which is a letter in its own right as are LL and DD (as distinct from C, H, D and L), and is rather like the Ch in the scottish word, Loch - its a very throaty sound indeed.

 

[neprimerimye]

The statistic comes from the Beeb - the item was about the benefits of language learning generally rather than being specifically about Welsh.

China has three languages I think.

Whatever the underlying economic, social, and historical reasons why people in 75% of the world can speak at least 2 languages - the fact is they CAN. So there is no reason why we in Wales can't be fully bilingual too. A comprehensive programme of bilingual education ought to be easy to set up.

As far as the current decline in the Welsh language is concerned the biggest villains are the Welsh-speaking middle-classes - the Pontcanna-ites and their ilk. They ought to be a powerful lobby for the language but they only really pay lip-service to it. The status quo suits them very nicely thank you, as their 'special status' enables them to rake in the grants - so why kill the golden goose?

Just imagine how vibrant Welsh culture would become if people from Ely to Rhyl were allowed to compete for jobs in Welsh broadcasting and the arts. At the moment most Welsh people are excluded from determining what Welsh culture is which is why we have a nepotistic and mediocre culture. A fully bilingual system from day 1 at school would eradicate this at a stroke and be a massive boost for Wales.

Bring it on, I say.

So the statistic you have quoted is something you heard on the radio? Given that I've never heard or seen a similar statistic anywhere else i cannot but conclude that you misheard something.Indeed you play rather loose with facts again when you assert that China has three languages. In fact it has dozens of languages. Although Han Chinese is spoken by the vast majority and the ruling class hae had a long standing policy of forcing it on minority groups.

Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?

Your vision of Wales as bilingual - begging the question of which language individuals will choose to speak to other individuals given a free choice - is utopian. Languages are no more equal than individuals. Certainly individuals should have equal rights and opportunities but it is crazy to believe that they are equal in every way. Similarly languages are not equal and even if by some magic everybody in Wales was able to speak both languages we would still live in a world in which Welsh is a minority language and English a world language spoken by hundreds of millions.

At most by boosting the number of Welsh speakers you would be boosting the market for Welsh medium cultural products. Assuming, an unwarranted asumption in my opnion, that people would choose such products over their English medum rivals in the market. In no other way would you be boosting Welsh culture, whatever that means, given that popular culture everywhere is increasing international - which in reality all too often means Anglo-Amercian of course - based on the bourgeois values of this society. Viewed in this way what is specifically Welsh about People of the Valley that differntiates it as such from Coronation Street or Manuredale?

To conclude we live in a society in which a world culture exists and i the tendencies towards it sfurther development are massive. Some such endencies are deplorable in my opinion and others very positive. But the development of such a culture and the sheer impossiblity for any national or minority language culture, 'Welsh culture' would of course be both, is clear for all to see. Your vision of a vibrant Welsh language based cuture in all parts of Wales is as utopian and socially reactionary as say the vision of Wales held by Saunders Lewis that we would all return to an agricultural Roman Catholc Wales.

Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much.

 

[llantwit]

Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much.

My feelings exactly.

 

[liampreston]

I'll try and bring this back to the original intention of the thread =)

The company I work for has recently taken on a contract for Wales, and honestly we are trying to learn a few phrases to please our clients..

Any chance of a quick translation for the equivilent for "That should be done now" or "Done".. in the context of a quick email reply to advise the request has been, er, done ?

Diolch yn fawr =)