Bash the SWP - why is it such a popular sport?

[dennisr]

the AWL. Except with them its political.

Yep, I had forgotten them....

 

[Das Uberdog]

not now it ain't

hey das, when a local group is running a successful community-based anti-war or environmental movement unaffiliated to the SWP do you

a) leave them to it.

b) travel in from miles away in order to speak to local journalists about how the STWC / SWP have successfully mobilised opinion in the town?

when said group are having meetings do you

a) leave them to it

b) alienate loads of people by using the meetings to denounce imperialism, the middle-classes, religion, and mainstream politics, and explain that the only true position of the anti-war / environmental movement should be revollutionary and not giving anyone else a chance to speak?

Well, obviously if there was a Stop the War branch not dominated by the SWP near here I'd send the team round, kick the door down, shout inane lefty rhetoric and soundbites until all involved left out of despair, declare Stop the War (in whichever region) officially a 'no democracy zone' and twiddle my thumbs with glee in my new swivelly chair, as the new self-appointed head of bureucracy in said organisation.

But then again I'm biased.

 

[cockneyrebel]

While I have many political criticisms of the SWP, sadly a lot of criticism of the SWP is pretty mindless and unconstructive.

 

[neprimerimye]

apart from that time neppy lent me his Pussy Galore and Rocket from the Crypt vinyl. that was pretty cool.

*rocks silently at desk*

 

[audiotech]

Nonviolent civil disboedience.
STWC just has no balls.

Let's all sit down, hold hands and listen to a crap James album then.

Over a million on the streets is civil disobedience. According to Blunkett's own words, the Labour cabinet felt intimidated by it.

 

[audiotech]

By walking into areas under pressure and shouting 'nazi' at potential bnp voters the swaps have had an immense impact on these areas. They have pissed people off so much that they have voted bnp just to piss off the swaps.

So, all those who will be voting BNP tomorrow; enter polling station; strike cross next to a fuckwit BNP candidate and stroll out shouting: "there that's shown the SWP who really piss me off!"

 

[justuname]

Let's all sit down, hold hands and listen to a crap James album then.

Over a million on the streets is civil disobedience. According to Blunkett's own words, the Labour cabinet felt intimidated by it.

The STWC actively opposed NVDA, actions at airfields where bombers were taking off from and civil disobedience. They called it elitist.

The events when the war started - no union action worth talking about but schoolkids on the streets and thousands involved in civil disobedience - showed that a lot of people were much more militant than the SWP/STWC, who did not want to do anything that they thought might alienate 'ordinary people'.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

So, all those who will be voting BNP tomorrow; enter polling station; strike cross next to a fuckwit BNP candidate and stroll out shouting: "there that's shown the SWP who really piss me off!"

Its not the whole story of the bnp vote but its a factor. People who should have traditionally relied on the left to back them in the face of monstrous cuts in public housing and a inflationary private sector market find that their concerns about access to services etc are being ignored by the largest left groups in favour of opportunistic chasing of votes on the grounds of race and or religion. This provides the opportunity for groups like the bnp to go 'these middle class lefties have been stitching you up to take your freedoms away and favour the others' this sort of lie if repeated in enough ears gets belived and unfortunately the actions of the swaps in areas vunerable to bnp activity agravates people rather than brings people in.

Communtiy poltics in its localist form is being practiced by the bnp in dagenham but ignored by much of the left.

FFS I remember when there was a healthy WRP group in Dagenham, now there is healthy bnp lot. What went wrong? The Swaps and the way they campaign and their message alientates the very people that the left need.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

There is no such thing as a healthy 'bnp lot'. Just as there is no such thing as a healthy case of TB or other disease. I have an idea that they get their support on the grounds of race and religion.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

There is no such thing as a healthy 'bnp lot'. Just as there is no such thing as a healthy case of TB or other disease. I have an idea that they get their support on the grounds of race and religion.

I was speaking in terms of how much support they got. Respect / BNP they are both garnering votes on the grounds of race and religion Theyare just the same turds but with different gravy on them.

Shame really as Respect could have been far far more than it turned out to be. I really thought that they could have been a proper democratic left alternative but took the easy vote of picking up block muslim votes in electorially corrupt boroughs like Newham.

 

[neprimerimye]

FFS I remember when there was a healthy WRP group in Dagenham, now there is healthy bnp lot. What went wrong? The Swaps and the way they campaign and their message alientates the very people that the left need.

Virtually every far left group tried to get into Ford Dagenham at one time or another. But the WRP never did as far as I know. The most persistant being the tiny Workers Fight group affiliated to the UCI (Lutte Ouvriere)while the SWP long had a branch in the area but few if any members in the plants.

Blaming the SWP for the electoral rise of the BNP in the district is grotesquely unfair. The fact is that the far left failed to get into the plant as they were blocked by the presence of the now defunct CPGB and because the plant rarely hired new workers for many years. Which meant they could not begin to work in the plant itself.

If you want to balme anybody for the rise of the BNP in the are blame the trade union bureaucracy for not fighting unemployment and blame the labour Party for not standing up for traditional Labourite values, something spotted even by John Cruddas the districts MP I note, but don't blame the SWP. They simply aren't that important.

 

[emanymton]

The STWC actively opposed NVDA, actions at airfields where bombers were taking off from and civil disobedience. They called it elitist.

The events when the war started - no union action worth talking about but schoolkids on the streets and thousands involved in civil disobedience - showed that a lot of people were much more militant than the SWP/STWC, who did not want to do anything that they thought might alienate 'ordinary people'.

This is just Bollocks; I was still I still in the SWP at this time and we where heavily involved in the school student protests (they are still some of my fondest memories), I know 5 SWP members who were arrested on those demonstration in my local area alone. I came quite close to getting arrested myself but the cop in charge decided he didn’t want me so I was picked up and thrown into the demonstration instead.

 

[audiotech]

The STWC actively opposed NVDA, actions at airfields where bombers were taking off from and civil disobedience. They called it elitist.

The events when the war started - no union action worth talking about but schoolkids on the streets and thousands involved in civil disobedience - showed that a lot of people were much more militant than the SWP/STWC, who did not want to do anything that they thought might alienate 'ordinary people'.

Come on, schoolkids on the street and 'many thousands' would have not stopped this war. It might look 'more militant', but it wasn't at all. You're just fooling yourself.

 

[neprimerimye]

Come on, schoolkids on the street and 'many thousands' would have not stopped this war. It might look 'more militant', but it wasn't at all. You're just fooling yourself.

True mass sitdowns are as ineffective as mass demonstrations that lead nowhere. But that is not a good reason to oppose such actions is it?

What was needed was for socialists to point to the centrality of the working classes to any struggle against war. Something the SWP no longer does in comparison to wars past.

Instead the SWP placed the emphasis of ots propaganda on building a cross class (populist) alliance and taking that movement off the streets and in an electoralist direction.

 

[audiotech]

Its not the whole story of the bnp vote but its a factor. People who should have traditionally relied on the left to back them in the face of monstrous cuts in public housing and a inflationary private sector market find that their concerns about access to services etc are being ignored by the largest left groups in favour of opportunistic chasing of votes on the grounds of race and or religion. This provides the opportunity for groups like the bnp to go 'these middle class lefties have been stitching you up to take your freedoms away and favour the others' this sort of lie if repeated in enough ears gets belived and unfortunately the actions of the swaps in areas vunerable to bnp activity agravates people rather than brings people in.

Communtiy poltics in its localist form is being practiced by the bnp in dagenham but ignored by much of the left.

FFS I remember when there was a healthy WRP group in Dagenham, now there is healthy bnp lot. What went wrong? The Swaps and the way they campaign and their message alientates the very people that the left need.

neprimerimye answered most of this, but i'll give my two penneth.

What went wrong was that the working class were defeated massively in the 80's.

The left and there has been a few left groups in the past were all involved to some degree in the defensive struggles that took place in the late 70's and eighties.

Importantly, around the early to mid seventies the organised working class was actually in a strong position and let's not forget their actions brought down the Heath government.

The ruling class crapped itself then and realised that their position was weakened and went about addressing that. There were plotters and right wing lunatic fringe groups everywhere. There was talk of a coup against Harold Wilson's Labour Government and the growth of the far-right in the guise of the NF. Then came Thatcherism of course, which was just open, naked class war.

I knew many good working class militants in the WRP, SWP and the IMG and blimey did we put a lot of fight into the struggles at the time.

The problem for the left in the early to mid seventies was the strength of the union bureaucracy and the pull of reformist politics towards the Labour party and to some degree the role of the CPGB.

Sadly, most of these left groups have been consigned to history as a result of the defeats inflicted on the working class.

However, there are still a few who have survived that difficult period. So, rather than be transfixed by what the BNP are saying, which is cobblers anyway, it's time to rebuild the left and turn to the working class of all races and religions - the only real force worthy of note. It was never meant to be easy, but there still is a world to win.

 

[audiotech]

True mass sitdowns are as ineffective as mass demonstrations that lead nowhere. But that is not a good reason to oppose such actions is it?

What was needed was for socialists to point to the centrality of the working classes to any struggle against war. Something the SWP no longer does in comparison to wars past.

Instead the SWP placed the emphasis of ots propaganda on building a cross class (populist) alliance and taking that movement off the streets and in an electoralist direction.

The 'action' the poster raised didn't involve a 'mass' anything though. It involved a few bit players.

The SWP has not moved away at all from the centrality of the working class and it's role. But if the working class is not confident, or doesn't move to the next step what then?

There are no bourgeiosie in Respect so how is it a "cross class (populist) alliance?

Also, the "movement" has not been taken off the streets. Yet, it's bizarre that the STWC is always being bemoaned by those talking about A to B marches not doing anything, so when a radical left alternative is attempted to be built then people say it's populist. Can't win eh?

There has to be an electoral Left alternative built, or the BNP are left to fill the vacuum are you too blind to see that?

 

[Geoff kerr-morg]

Tony Blair's main legacy will be the disaster in Iraq all of the opinion polls show this and that the electorate will not forgive him. Stop The War Coalition has hounded Blair since it's formation. When Bush visited Britain he couldn't walk the streets. STWC didn't stop the war but they have kept the anti war anger at the forefront of British politics even when it was supposedly unpopular.

 

[lewislewis]

The anti-war movement against Blair did have some impact in accentuating public opinion, but note that when the SWP 'took it' (as if they owned it) into an elecotralist direction, most of the people that had been on that demonstration didn't join Respect.

I remember Yvonne Ridley writing on Al-jazeera when Respect was set up that 'with 2 million members, Respect would be the largest political party in UK history' (referring to the 2 million people on that demonstration) : p

 

[junius]

The 'action' the poster raised didn't involve a 'mass' anything though. It involved a few bit players.

The SWP has not moved away at all from the centrality of the working class and it's role. But if the working class is not confident, or doesn't move to the next step what then?

There are no bourgeiosie in Respect so how is it a "cross class (populist) alliance?

Also, the "movement" has not been taken off the streets. Yet, it's bizarre that the STWC is always being bemoaned by those talking about A to B marches not doing anything, so when a radical left alternative is attempted to be built then people say it's populist. Can't win eh?

There has to be an electoral Left alternative built, or the BNP are left to fill the vacuum are you too blind to see that?

The essence of a popular front is that the marxists within an alliance agree to suspend some or all its programmatic demands inorder to secure the support of those to its right eg the SWP have voted down calls in StWC to support the demand for 'troops out now' and in Respect have watered down commitments on immigration, abortion etc. The popular front makes its appeal to 'the people' not to class.

There is nothing wrong in marxists making alliances with the capitalist class if circumstances dictate - eg supporting the Natwest (?) bankers - providing the former doesn't agree to suspend its programme to make such an alliance.

 

[audiotech]

The essence of a popular front is that the marxists within an alliance agree to suspend some or all its programmatic demands inorder to secure the support of those to its right eg the SWP have voted down calls in StWC to support the demand for 'troops out now' and in Respect have watered down commitments on immigration, abortion etc. The popular front makes its appeal to 'the people' not to class.

There is nothing wrong in marxists making alliances with the capitalist class if circumstances dictate - eg supporting the Natwest (?) bankers - providing the former doesn't agree to suspend its programme to make such an alliance.

But the SWP doesn't have a programme to suspend?

 

[audiotech]

The anti-war movement against Blair did have some impact in accentuating public opinion, but note that when the SWP 'took it' (as if they owned it) into an elecotralist direction, most of the people that had been on that demonstration didn't join Respect.

I remember Yvonne Ridley writing on Al-jazeera when Respect was set up that 'with 2 million members, Respect would be the largest political party in UK history' (referring to the 2 million people on that demonstration) : p

Have you a link to the quote like?

I think it more likely that Ridley was appealing to those who had been on the march to join Respect and if they all joined then there would therefore be blah, blah, blah etc?

Nice try though.

 

[junius]

But the SWP doesn't have a programme to suspend?

Too true - the absence of one has always enabled it to travel light, to put it politely.

Yet, Socialist Worker's statement of principles - as close as the SWP comes to a programme - declares opposition to all immigration controls, does it not ?

 

[audiotech]

Too true - the absence of one has always enabled it to travel light, to put it politely.

Yet, Socialist Worker's statement of principles - as close as the SWP comes to a programme - declares opposition to all immigration controls, does it not ?

Good point. I know Galloways position (he thinks there should be some controls). Respect however have progressive statements on migration, asylum seekers, also refugees and this on this issue of immigration:

Every group of immigrants has been greeted with dire predictions from sections of the establishment that they would not fit in; that people would never accept them and that society would collapse. Yet they have fitted in and ordinary people have come together again and again to reject the racist’s scaremongering. Our society is stronger and more vibrant as a result.

 

[junius]

Good point. I know Galloways position (he thinks there should be some controls). Respect however have progressive statements on migration and this on this issue of immigration:

Am I meant to be impressed by this statement? I'm sure you could get politicians from across the mainstream to agree.

 

[northernhord]

Does the SWP deserve the bashing it gets, or is it an element of jealousy cos they are the most organised?

If the SWP didnt exist would it make the slightest difference?

What I used to find offensive about them when they came on our precinct on a Saturday flogging their wares was the fact that not one of them was from Salford and all spoke with accents that I,d only ever heard on the radio, they always seemed to have nice estuary accents and decent clothes.

Politically the reason I dont like them is their 'Hijack it and make it look like your own' spectacle, you'd have a scenario where hordes of different political activits are running round like blue arsed flies then suddenly the SWP turn up and take over the show.
There is a whole gaggle of other stuff that I dont agree with them on which aint really worth going into.

If they acted like something that you could link into rather than acting like a domineering virus then great steps could be made by different groups pulling together.

 

[ska invita]

... organised the largest demo ever, which didn't stop the war, but considering the US was gung ho to go ahead no matter what, what would have do you think?

Nonviolent civil disboedience.
STWC just has no balls.

Let's all sit down, hold hands and listen to a crap James album then.

Over a million on the streets is civil disobedience. According to Blunkett's own words, the Labour cabinet felt intimidated by it. (NS: I detect no irony in this post!)

The STWC actively opposed NVDA, actions at airfields where bombers were taking off from and civil disobedience. They called it elitist.

The events when the war started - no union action worth talking about but schoolkids on the streets and thousands involved in civil disobedience - showed that a lot of people were much more militant than the SWP/STWC, who did not want to do anything that they thought might alienate 'ordinary people'.

Thanks justuname - thats absolutely right - and what a dissapointing post from MC5 - is that really what you think of NDVA? If the cabinet felt intimidated all we had to to was press that little bit harder - break a few windows, show some anger - a lawless middle class in the streets of London? They'd have caved in seconds...

THe suffragettes put STWC to shame - at least they understood that legal protest was well and good but sometimes you had to break the law and go to jail on moral grounds.

Taking responsibilty for a campaign means being prepared to lead it into action, not on strolls to parks on the weekend to listen to Ms Dynamite's new single.

This isnt SWP bashing per se - I think if we learn one lesson from Iraq as activists is that next time there has to be more organised disobedience. The tameness of the STWC leadership was something i found deeply depressing.
----
On another note I think it would be nice if somehow on this thread we could pin down what it would take for peace to be made with the SWP - or are the problems just too institutionalised? A start:

If they acted like something that you could link into rather than acting like a domineering virus then great steps could be made by different groups pulling together.

 

[fanciful]

Well yes and no. It does have a set of traditions a body of theory and practice which have guided its actions in the past - in essence a programme, even if its not called that and clearly setting up non-socialist cross class electoral bloc isn't part of that tradition. So Respect is something of a break in that sense at least. I remember reading a message off Rob Hoverman during the Socialist Alliance days about how we had to stop the Liberals doing something (forget what), then only a short while after the SWP were inviting them onto the platform of Feb 15th.
And just to show if you've broken one shibboleth you might as well break another, they crowned it of course by inviting Michael Ancram to the People's Assembly, even if he didn't turn up.

 

[emanymton]

True mass sitdowns are as ineffective as mass demonstrations that lead nowhere. But that is not a good reason to oppose such actions is it?

Sorry to sound like a broken record but I’m not prepared to let this myth go unchallenged the SWP and STWC where not opposed to the school student protests but fully in support of them

What was needed was for socialists to point to the centrality of the working classes to any struggle against war. Something the SWP no longer does in comparison to wars past.

Instead the SWP placed the emphasis of ots propaganda on building a cross class (populist) alliance and taking that movement off the streets and in an electoralist direction.

I agree; however I would like to ask do you think there was any chance of the working class taking action against the war as a class? I don’t think there was; the level of industrial struggle is currently at a very low level and I find it unlikely that people would taken class action (i.e. strikes) against war when they are not striking on day to day issues. Maybe more could have be made of the possibilities but as you may remember the fire fighters strike took place during this period and again the SWP put a lot of energy into supporting that strike and trying to link it into the war.

On the subject of small scale none violent DA. I don’t see much difference between that and demonstrations, neither could have stopped the war on there own and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Demonstrations however involve far people which is way the STWC put its weight behind them rather than blockades at military bases again I don’t think it is true that the STWC coalition actively opposed these things but rather in the interest of involving the maximum number of people it focused on national demonstrations.

Incidentally are me and MC5 an exception to the rule that ex-SWP members are the most vitriolic against it

 

[lewislewis]

Have you a link to the quote like?

I think it more likely that Ridley was appealing to those who had been on the march to join Respect and if they all joined then there would therefore be blah, blah, blah etc?

Nice try though.

It was 4 years ago and I did have a quick search, but my description was pretty accurate, on my honour.

 

[TremulousTetra]

What I used to find offensive about them when they came on our precinct on a Saturday flogging their wares was the fact that not one of them was from Salford and all spoke with accents that I,d only ever heard on the radio, they always seemed to have nice estuary accents and decent clothes.

well I know for a fact this isn't true. One guy in particular has always lived in Salford, used to work at Age Croft mine (or whatever it was), has been unemployed since then (use to care for his disabled wife and family) and doesn't fit one single one of the stereotypes you are trying to propagate. I also know several other working members who do live in Salford.