Barclays cash point: warning

[TeeJay]

3. A uniformed police presence 24/7 is not practicable and, in any event would only displace the crimes to somewhere else.

Brixton High Street between the tube and the bus stops - the location of this cash point - has a *vast* number of people passing through it every day. What exactly are the police doing all the time that they can't police central Brixton with actual police on the ground?

Why is it that there is never any shortage of police at even the smallest and most peaceful demo? Why do I see police on the ground in most other town centres aound the country, but hardly ever in Brixton (as opposed to speeding past in a squad car)?

Sorry but this doesn't really make any sense to me.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Why is it that there is never any shortage of police at even the smallest and most peaceful demo? Why do I see police on the ground in most other town centres aound the country, but hardly ever in Brixton (as opposed to speeding past in a squad car)?

I quite often see police outside Brixton tube.

 

[pooka]

4. There may well be undercover operations, either in operation or being planned (but to tell everyone would be self-defeating!!). The police work on "hotspots" (which is why EVERY crime / attempt needs to be reported otherwise the basic data is inaccurate), prioritising types of crimes and numbers. Such operations are very expensive in terms of time and staff hours so there is a limit on how many can be mounted at any one time. Raise the particular issue at the CPCG to ensure it really is on the list of things to do.

5. Police patrols and numbers are based on demand monitoring. The peaks of public calls are during the day and evening. Unfortunately this leads to "skewing" as less things happen later but they tend to be more serious. Raise the question at the CPCG - find out exactly how the Borough Commander is planning resource deployment and suggest any improvements / issues.

This was raised at the CPCG meeting last Tuesday. The response was (1) that there is a lot more police activity going on than meets the eye (2) the dealing activity is more than just the obvious guys, in terms of lookouts and so forth, and is hard to pin down (3) there is an intention to tackle demand by naming and shaming 'cityboys' who travel into Brixton to buy drugs (resting on the observation that 50% of people who get nicked for possession in Brixton are from out of the borough).

There will of course be mixed views around that, but that is what was said. My sense is that feeling at the CPCG is that resources have been put, very heavily, into Brixton Town Centre but that the dealers are adept at finding ways back if there is any relaxation on the part of the police.

There was also a presentation on Safer Neighbourhoods - this is an initiative for dedicated Ward based teams who respond to priorities set by local community panels. Both Coldharbour and Ferndale are now Safer Neighbourhood Wards and the wards meet on Brixton High Street. But the Town Centre is policed by it's own team and so, following the effective suspension of Brixton Forum Crime Working Group, there is no mechanism for Community input. A suggestion was made (from the floor) to mimic the Safer Neighbourhoods set up, but for the Town Centre.

Brixton Town Centre issues are of course brought up at CPCG, but folk from Clapham, Streatham, Kennington, Waterloo etc get a bit restless if all the focus is on Brixton.

 

[kea]

The more you push people down the more they'll burst up. We will all see. You can see already if you look. Just check Friday's SLP for a start.

why, what's in friday's SLP? i haven't got a copy - does anyone else?

 

[Pickman's model]

no.

 

[detective-boy]

Sorry but this doesn't really make any sense to me.

There are probably more police officers on the streets of Brixton than most other places in the country. Unfortunately they also have more to do and, when they do it, they are out of sight (in peoples houses reporting crimes; in the police station dealing with prisoners; in the police station entering information into computers, etc; at Court with the people they nicked a few months ago ....) and not on "random" patrol.

Any officer patrolling Brixton, with an ounce of investigative ability, could arrest someone for serious crime (Class A dealing if nothing else) within minutes. That is what they do.

To have two officers present 24/7 on that 100yd stretch of Brixton Road would require at least 16 officers (Four (to allow for cover during meal breaks) x 4 (the lowest number of teams to cover all shifts during a month rota)). This would NOT ensure cover if they arrested someone - I would estimate you'd need at least 32 to ensure that there were ALWAYS 2 on the street (unless you briefed them not to get involved in anything which would (a) be self-defeating and (b) impossible, because things would find them!)

At busy times, presence at one end of the 100 yd stretch would not ensure safety at the other end anyway - you'd probably need two every 30 yds to ensure they were visible to anyone in the 100 yd stretch.

So we've taken up to 32 officers to ensure a presence on a 100yd stretch of road - on that basis how many would be needed to put a presence at all similar hotspots across London? It really is NOT easy to ensure that there is a 24/7 presence at a particular point without massive increase in numbers (and I mean doubling or more).

The oft-quoted improvements in street crime in New York were only possible because numbers of police were increased to that extent.

 

[TeeJay]

There are probably more police officers on the streets of Brixton than most other places in the country.

But are there the same number in proportion to the number of crimes committed?

Any officer patrolling Brixton, with an ounce of investigative ability, could arrest someone for serious crime (Class A dealing if nothing else) within minutes

I'd say that someone getting attacked - ie a violent crime - is more serious than drug dealing. It is also more serious than parking violations - yet Brixton seems to have plenty of car parking officers. Maybe the lesson behind this is that if there is *money* to be made then things get done? Now all we need is a proper system of bounties and rewards on the heads of muggers and the like. Maybe the area would suddenly fill up with private enterprise vigilantes out to make the streets safer (and a quick buck).

More seriously tho' - isn't this the idea behind community support officers? They can wander round talking to people etc and don't get bogged down in arresting people or the more "serious" end of things. Or is Brixton considered too dangerous and difficult for them? Maybe the new mini-cop-shop on Coldharbour will have a similar effect?

 

[poster342002]

That was fast work - the day after I read this thread I was walking to the tube and those bus stops on the corner had been removed!

Fuck knows where those oregano salesmen who spend their days waiting for a bus that never comes are going to go...

They could bog off up their own backsides, with any luck. Shame they probably won't, though.

 

[Ms T]

why, what's in friday's SLP? i haven't got a copy - does anyone else?

I think it's the story about people being robbed while in bed. If you look on the Do You Feel Safer in Brixton thread you'll find a link.

 

[kea]

oh ok cheers! so hatboy reckons that the people doing that are doing it because it's some kind of social uprising?

 

[editor]

oh ok cheers! so hatboy reckons that the people doing that are doing it because it's some kind of social uprising?

Who knows, but you can guarantee that whatever it is he thinks, he'll be right and you'll be wrong.

 

[kea]

just had a look at that news story - tbh if i was one of the people robbed in that story, i'd be deeply upset and offended that someone on a bulletin board was using it to argue that the people doing the robbing and pistol whipping were doing it because they had been in some way 'oppressed' by newcomers to the area.
i think that's quite a revolting and cynical twisting of a very horrifying news story.

 

[editor]

just had a look at that news story - tbh if i was one of the people robbed in that story, i'd be deeply upset and offended that someone on a bulletin board was using it to argue that the people doing the robbing and pistol whipping were doing it because they had been in some way 'oppressed' by newcomers to the area.
i think that's quite a revolting and cynical twisting of a very horrifying news story.

JUDGE: can you offer any mitigating circumstances for your dreadful crimes?
SCUMBAG THIEF: It was moving the bus stops wot done it for me, your honour. They're to blame.

 

[Orang Utan]

Hatboy's thesis about Brixton life is absurd.
He seems obsessed with black culture and infers any criticism of seedy drug dealers in Brixton as a prejudiced attack on blacks, which IMO does Brixton's black people a terrible disservice.

 

[Orang Utan]

You seem to be inferring that I think I'm better than other people. That is not the case. I just think it's wrong to hassle and intimidate people and it's ridiculous and impractical to always have consideration for what cultural, economic and political forces have brought someone to become a drug dealer or a mugger, especially if they are punching you in the face. There are other places where the local ruffians are white, but in Brixton, many happen to be black. This is a reflection of the ethnic make up of the area. So hatboy is wrong to place emphasis of criticism of violence and intimidation in one's neighbourhood as an attack on black culture, in fact in doing so, he is disparaging the culture he ostensibly embraces.

 

[editor]

(several off topic posts removed)

 

[detective-boy]

But are there the same number in proportion to the number of crimes committed?
I'd say that someone getting attacked - ie a violent crime - is more serious than drug dealing. It is also more serious than parking violations - yet Brixton seems to have plenty of car parking officers...

More seriously tho' - isn't this the idea behind community support officers? They can wander round talking to people etc and don't get bogged down in arresting people or the more "serious" end of things. Or is Brixton considered too dangerous and difficult for them? Maybe the new mini-cop-shop on Coldharbour will have a similar effect?

Unfortunately the numbers are not in proportion - there are far more calls on police time in Brixton per officer than in most (but not all) other places.

You may be right about violent crime being more important than drug dealing ... but the latter has been shown to attract the former and the complaints would flood in if officers ignored drug dealing (see the regular comments on other threads here!) waiting for a violent crime to come along. Uniform patrols may decrease the chances of a violent attack in a small bubble around them but they are not good at arresting suspects - that needs proactive and reactive investigation ... which needs officers off the street or in plain clothes.

As for parking, couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the parking wardens are all council / contractor employees, nothing to do with the police. The cost of them is effectively ring-fenced for parking enforcement as they are a single issue organisation, independently funded.

You are right about CSOs but, again, as they have very limited powers, no batons, etc. and limited training there are big issues in their Health and Safety when deployed in high crime areas - a violent offender is unlikely to treat them any differently than a police officer. There are CSOs in the Brixton area and they are on the street. They also tend to get used for things like assisting with crime scene cordons, more often a need in the Brixton area than many others - it's a bit of a Catch22 situation!

Don't hold your breath about the Coldharbour Lane police shop - I doubt if it will be open often (to do so would take yet another officer off the street); I don't believe it is to be accompanied by any additional officers so the numbers will be the same. It will just be a local base for officers in that area to work from, saving them about ten minutes walk to the main station!!

 

[IntoStella]

(several off topic posts removed)

EXCUSE ME.

I made several completely ON TOPIC posts discussing THE TOPIC with orang utan. Which you have deleted because your TOTAL PLOT LOSSAGE is so advanced.

Or are people not allowed to have a proper discussion any more wthout having their posts deleted by you?

You laid into hatboy many times for interfering with posts when he was a moderator and you're ten times worse.

Besides, I thought FRIDGE was now moderator of this forum. At least he allows people to actually have a debate without launching into spiteful personal attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with him and who aren't even online at the time. Assuming they haven't been banned already for speaking their mind.

For god's sake get a grip.

And there is nothing 'off topic' about this -- you deleted my contributions to this discussion for no good reason.

 

[IntoStella]

You seem to be inferring that I think I'm better than other people. That is not the case. I just think it's wrong to hassle and intimidate people and it's ridiculous and impractical to always have consideration for what cultural, economic and political forces have brought someone to become a drug dealer or a mugger, especially if they are punching you in the face. There are other places where the local ruffians are white, but in Brixton, many happen to be black. This is a reflection of the ethnic make up of the area. So hatboy is wrong to place emphasis of criticism of violence and intimidation in one's neighbourhood as an attack on black culture, in fact in doing so, he is disparaging the culture he ostensibly embraces.

Please note.


The reason this response no longer makes contextual sense is that the post before it was removed for no good reason.

 

[tarannau]

The only post of Orang's I've seen deleted is 'cut it out you two' tbh.

As far as I can tell, Orang's points are still intact - I keep meaning to reply to his last post (local ruffians...disparaging etc) but keep being distracted by this work stuff...

There's some good stuff on this thread, please don't let it go off the same old way again...

 

[Mr BC]

It does, on the face of it, seem hard to see how one side of an argument's posts are 'off topic' whilst the other side's posts are left up! We therefore have a completely nonsensical line of posts. if one side's goes, surely the other's does too?

I note that Editor's snipe at Hatboy remains in place although hardly on topic.

 

[Orang Utan]

Hatboy's thesis about Brixton life is absurd.
He seems obsessed with black culture and infers any criticism of seedy drug dealers in Brixton as a prejudiced attack on blacks, which IMO does Brixton's black people a terrible disservice.

IS responded to this by suggesting that hatboy doesn't have a narrow conservative outlook and doesn't regard himself as better than other human beings, or words to that effect - IS? Can you confirm this?
I disagreed that I was putting myself above muggers and dealers, but I had every right to onject to them.
Hope this helps.

 

[editor]

And there is nothing 'off topic' about this -- you deleted my contributions to this discussion for no good reason.

Your "contribution" was a list of irrelevant whines parroting words I'd supposedly said to your charming friend Anna Key in long-deleted/forgotten unrelated threads from months ago.

It had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread - it was just another of your tedious personal attacks.

To be honest, I'm running out of ideas why I should continue to entertain your unprovoked personal attacks, disruptive lies and defamatory accusations.

Remember: the admin team run this site in their own time and for no profit, so unprovoked or sustained personal attacks may result in a ban

 

[editor]

I note that Editor's snipe at Hatboy remains in place although hardly on topic.

I feel it's a fair response to his stance on this thread, and I'm sure the world's slowest-departing poster will be along shortly to counter it.

 

[Orang Utan]

To be fair, there was a part of the message which was a politely worded and reasonable response to my post and on topic, while your last post and the rest of IS's post was just going over well-trodden ground that the rest of us are bored to tears with. Wind your neck in for the sake of the rest of us, please!

 

[editor]

I apologise if I accidentally deleted any relevant content - that wasn't my intent.

 

[TeeJay]

So... as we were saying - about crime and policing in Brixton...

 

[hatboy]

OrangUtan said:

"Hatboy's thesis about Brixton life is absurd. He seems obsessed with black culture and infers any criticism of seedy drug dealers in Brixton as a prejudiced attack on blacks, which IMO does Brixton's black people a terrible disservice".

No that's not it. Though I can see how people might think that about me on urban75. I just don't have a conventional view on who is "seedy" and who isn't. As for "which IMO does Brixton's black people a terrible disservice". I can't "diss-serve" so much people all at once - Caribbean, African, all the rest - LOL - I don't have that power. Your opinion on this subject doesn't really matter to me. Though I often listen to black people face to face in Brixton that I learn from on these and other issues.

What I think is that some other white people are threatened by a white person who is quite comfortable with criticism of white people. I'm interested in becoming a more truthful and conscious person. And if the truth is uncomfortable for other white people (or for me) then that discomfort should be endured. The discomfort goes away the more conscious you are.

As for "obsessed" - yeah I give a shit. These issues hurt people that I care about as well as mattering generally.

"Seedy" means "morally degraded" - Well I see moral degradation more in the upper ranks of our society. It also means "untidy or shaby" - that's no measure of the value of a person.

 

[hatboy]

Mm - cultural obsession eh....

...unlike the omnipotent white man whose "obsession" with his own culture is so great that he cannot bear the affront when it is resisted by others.

Carry On Colonialism....

 

[Giles]

People who can find no better occupation than to hang around in the street variously robbing other people, often with violence or threat of it, and/or attempting to sell shit drugs to passers-by are seedy scumbags, whatever colour their skin is, is my opinion.

They contribute nothing except to make everyone else go about their business in fear.

That's shit. They are shit.

Giles..