Bailiffs to be allowed to break and enter?

[Bernie Gunther]

Unfortunately the power to use reasonable force to prevent crime or make a citizens arrest relies on there actually being a crime, not on your honest belief - so if you are wrong you could be in trouble.

For removal of a trespasser, the owner of premises / land or their agent can only use reasonable force to remove a trespasser and they only become a trespasser when told to leave if they then do not - if they have a legitimate right to be there (i.e. a warrant or any non-warrant power) they will not be a trespasser and any use of force against them will be assault.

If you are using the power to defend yourself - if you honestly believe they are about to assault you or someone else - that is different. It IS your honest blief that matters, regardless of what was actually happening.

Presumably though if a bunch of shaven headed thugs in bouncer jackets break into your house you can reasonably claim self-defence due to fearing for your life?

I'm fairly sure I'd become quite concerned if that happened.

 

[TAE]

as I understand it, this is for council tax non payment and not for private debts with banks/credit card conpanies.

If it's not the police with authorisation from a court/judge, I really don't care WHY they are breaking into my home.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Presumably though if a bunch of shaven headed thugs in bouncer jackets break into your house you can reasonably claim self-defence due to fearing for your life?

I'm fairly sure I'd become quite concerned if that happened.

Unless you're a 5ft 1in woman, in which case you need 4 big blokes to restrain you with self-admitted brutal force. Can't do the crime, don't do the time even???

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I got a bailiff's letter yesterday morning.

I stressed about it for a few hours then called (it said call within 24 hours or else kinda thing).

I explained to the chap that I didn't really owe the money (the original court order was in respect of council tax that I didn't owe because I haven't worked for four years and I've been on benefits and it should've been paid by council tax but the council f'ed up my benefits).

The bailiff chappy was very nice and understanding. He said it happens a lot and advised me to revert back to the council and ask them to 'stay' the bailiff's action while they sort it out.

I was really worried and stressed out. But he was very reasonable and quite nice about it actually.

From the sound of it, he does have to pick up the pieces of a load of council fuck ups.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If it's not the police with authorisation from a court/judge, I really don't care WHY they are breaking into my home.

Well quite.

I forsee quite a lot of bailiffs getting disembowelled with large kitchen knives.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

And P.S. if the worst comes to the worst:

I live in a block of flats (three storeys, ground, first and second floor, I'm on the second floor). There are only three flats in the block and it's quite secure with an entryphone.

Even if a bailiff does get in to the block, I can still refuse them entry into my flat, right?

But what about the open door/window thingy? About a year and a half ago, a window got broken (wind whipped it off the hinges), just one window in a three small windows = one big window kinda thing. Only the thing is, the broken one is still boarded up with this perspex kind of thing. Is that technically 'open' because there's no window there? Or does that count as closed because it's covered with a temporary perspex covering? Could they put up a ladder and gain entry to my flat?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

And P.S. if the worst comes to the worst:

I live in a block of flats (three storeys, ground, first and second floor, I'm on the second floor). There are only three flats in the block and it's quite secure with an entryphone.

Even if a bailiff does get in to the block, I can still refuse them entry into my flat, right?

But what about the open door/window thingy? About a year and a half ago, a window got broken (wind whipped it off the hinges), just one window in a three small windows = one big window kinda thing. Only the thing is, the broken one is still boarded up with this perspex kind of thing. Is that technically 'open' because there's no window there? Or does that count as closed because it's covered with a temporary perspex covering? Could they put up a ladder and gain entry to my flat?

In regards to the open window Ann I would be very suprised if a bailiff can enter via a boarded up window - that sounds lke breaking and entering to me.

My knowledge is that if a door or window is left open then bailiffs can use that to enter the premises.

 

[detective-boy]

Presumably though if a bunch of shaven headed thugs in bouncer jackets break into your house you can reasonably claim self-defence due to fearing for your life?

That is a distinct possibility. It is good practice for even the police to announce themselves to avoid misunderstandings - hence the usual shouts of "Police", etc. during forced entries.

I would expect competent bailiffs to announce what they are doing and demonstrate their legal power (waving the warrant about or whatever). In those circumstances you'd be hard pressed to convince a jury that you honestly believed otherwise.

 

[detective-boy]

In regards to the open window Ann I would be very suprised if a bailiff can enter via a boarded up window - that sounds lke breaking and entering to me.

I think that is probably right, as long as it is secure.

 

[lights.out.london]

Well quite.

I forsee quite a lot of bailiffs getting disembowelled with large kitchen knives.

The future is bright. The future is bloody.

 

[TAE]

I would expect competent bailiffs to announce what they are doing and demonstrate their legal power (waving the warrant about or whatever). In those circumstances you'd be hard pressed to convince a jury that you honestly believed otherwise.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but isn't this new law going to give them access to your home even if you are not there? How would 90% of young males react if they came home and found intruders present ?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but isn't this new law going to give them access to your home even if you are not there? How would 90% of young males react if they came home and found intruders present ?

Yeah, and what about scally burglars?

If you come home and find someone loading up your worldy goods into a van, and they wave a bit of paper at you saying they're bailiffs and this is some kind of warrant/permission...

And then it turns out that they were burglars/con artists...

Where would you stand in terms of insurance, if you'd looked at their bit of paper, accepted it, and let them drive off with all your stuff? Like the insurance company would really pay up without a murmur and wouldn't argue the toss about that one.

 

[8ball]

I hadn't even thought of that one

 

[detective-boy]

How would 90% of young males react if they came home and found intruders present ?

The same principles apply - it would be recommended good practice for someone to remain outside to intercept any people arriving and explain what is happening or, at very least, for someone inside to be tasked with staying around the front door and doing likewise. If it is done properly (and I have my doubts whether it will be) it shouldn't be as bad as is being portrayed - in terms of what will be seen by occupiers it is no different from a search warrant being executed by plain clothes police officers.

 

[8ball]

When is this supposed law going through?

I've apparently got bailiffs coming round on Monday chasing a previous tenant's debts . . .

 

[detective-boy]

If you come home and find someone loading up your worldy goods into a van, and they wave a bit of paper at you saying they're bailiffs and this is some kind of warrant/permission...

And then it turns out that they were burglars/con artists...

It's no different in potential to any other type of distraction / con burglary. I would be extremely surprised if anyone in the circumstances described would simply have a casual look at a bit of paper, shrug and let them drive off (in most cases they would not have any debt that bailiffs might be chasing anyway). Just like any other "official" caller, people would be able to confirm identity by whatever means available - checking documents, ringing listed office numbers, checking with the police if necessary.

 

[detective-boy]

When is this supposed law going through?

It's miles away yet - it's only a draft Bill so they haven't even finally agreed what to debate in the Commons and the Lords so far as I know.

 

[8ball]

It's miles away yet - it's only a draft Bill so they haven't even finally agreed what to debate in the Commons and the Lords so far as I know.

Ah, that's ok, then.

It's funny, they've been chasing this bints debts for ages - I've just shredded everything that's come through cos every rented house seems to have a long list of previous tenant debtors. Some things that came through looked like those 'you've won a comp - turn up here to collect' bailiff cons.

The fact that it's even being considered is astonishing. It's the kind of bill that could fuck a Government like the Poll Tax once the bailiff fucks start robbing people with State backing, many of which will never have heard of the debtor.

 

[detective-boy]

I've just shredded everything that's come through cos every rented house seems to have a long list of previous tenant debtors.

Which probably explains why you will, sooner or later, get a visit.

Because if you pause for a moment and think about the situation from the other side, what exactly would they be seeing if the debtor WAS still there ...

If it appears someone has got their facts wrong, correct them. Once you have you are on very strong ground if they persist. Ignore them and you will get more and more shite to deal with - the bailiffs / courts / police do not have some magic lantern which means they instantly know what you know.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That is a distinct possibility. It is good practice for even the police to announce themselves to avoid misunderstandings - hence the usual shouts of "Police", etc. during forced entries.

I would expect competent bailiffs to announce what they are doing and demonstrate their legal power (waving the warrant about or whatever). In those circumstances you'd be hard pressed to convince a jury that you honestly believed otherwise.

I'm not sure that's so. I have no reason to believe that bailiffs (or for that matter police) would be after me, so if someone showed up claiming that, while breaking into my house, I'd have every reason to assume they were lying junkie scum intent on stealing my stuff and quite likely on killing or injuring me if I tried to stop them.

 

[detective-boy]

I'm not sure that's so. I have no reason to believe that bailiffs (or for that matter police) would be after me, so if someone showed up claiming that, while breaking into my house, I'd have every reason to assume they were lying junkie scum intent on stealing my stuff and quite likely on killing or injuring me if I tried to stop them.

You could try that if you wished ... but I doubt a jury would accept that you were entitled to ignore any documentation proferred; listen to any explanation offered; consider any other evidence (dress, numbers, vehicles ...), etc. suggesting the people weren't "lying junkie scum" (whatever they may be - your ASG (Automatic Stereotype Generator appears to have stuck on full throttle ...)

 

[8ball]

. . . the bailiffs / courts / police do not have some magic lantern which means they instantly know what you know.

No, but they do have acres of data that says I've been living here for a year and plenty to suggest that the previous debtor has moved on.

 

[8ball]

but I doubt a jury would accept that you were entitled to ignore any documentation proferred; listen to any explanation offered; consider any other evidence . . .

Well, if Bernie de-guts any bailiffs and I find myself on the jury I certainly won't be sending him down.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Well quite.

I forsee quite a lot of bailiffs getting disembowelled with large kitchen knives.

good on you! looking forward to that!

 

[detective-boy]

No, but they do have acres of data that says I've been living here for a year and plenty to suggest that the previous debtor has moved on.

The make the same mistake as many others on these boards - you assume that what you hear people ranting on about - namely our intelligence / surveillance society is actually a reality.

It isn't, at least not to anything like the extent which is alleged.

There may well be "acres of data" somewhere, with some or other agency or company, but it is NOT freely accessible to every other agency or company. It is not even freely exchangable betwee government departments. The police frequently encounter difficulties obtaining information from DSS, IND, etc. and they are dealing with serious crime (which has an automatic exemption from the information exchange restrictions)!

This is precisely what the Data Protection Act is all about - your data can only be shared in accordance with the provisions of the Act ... and that means people who you owe money too cannot legally obtain much at all ... and certainly nothing about anyone else who now lives at an address.

This place cracks me up:

RIGHT HAND: Down with the surveillance society / ID cards / exchange of data ... ya boo sucks, this is a really bad thing ...
LEFT HAND: Why do I have to tell anyone anything ... they can get it from all the other agencies / companies which I have told things ...

that-a-way -------------------------->

 

[8ball]

Is this meant to be some kind of argument for legalising burglary?

I guess that would help the pigs' dismal clear-up rate anyhoo . .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You could try that if you wished ... but I doubt a jury would accept that you were entitled to ignore any documentation proferred; listen to any explanation offered; consider any other evidence (dress, numbers, vehicles ...), etc. suggesting the people weren't "lying junkie scum" (whatever they may be - your ASG (Automatic Stereotype Generator appears to have stuck on full throttle ...)

Heh, you're probably right about the jury, but people do some funny things and tend not to listen too hard when adrenaline floods their system due to e.g. their front door being kicked in, as your professional experience in this regard has no doubt taught you

 

[detective-boy]

Heh, you're probably right about the jury, but people do some funny things and tend not to listen too hard when adrenaline floods their system due to e.g. their front door being kicked in, as your professional experience in this regard has no doubt taught you

Of course it does (you couldn't pop over to the "Cop caught on CCTV" threads and explain the same concept by any chance, could you?). And the law will (quite rightly) give a very sizeable benefit of the doubt to the householder in the circumstances you describe ... but there would definitely NOT be a carte blanche to ignore anything which is being said or shown to you.

 

[Wilson]

theyll probably wait till youve gone out if they have any sense

 

[detective-boy]

if they have any sense

Have you ever met a bailiff? ...