BAE & when is a payment a commission and when is it a bribe?

[Sasaferrato]

It's not an issue about moral relativism. It's an issue about level playing fields. So you have to take your Nazis away and explain why BAE's salespeople have to pretend they're dealing with D&ES under an OJEU procurement, when they're shifting kit in a very complex and highly intermediated buying environment overseas.

You are wasting your pixels. Deliberate stupidity is insurmountable.

 

[Balbi]

If the government gives a fuck about what I do with my money, which they do because if I tried massive fraud i'd get well and truly fucked by the government - why shouldn't the same apply to BAE?

 

[hipipol]

It's not an issue about moral relativism. It's an issue about level playing fields. So you have to take your Nazis away and explain why BAE's salespeople have to pretend they're dealing with D&ES under an OJEU procurement, when they're shifting kit in a very complex and highly intermediated buying environment overseas.

Level playing fields?
Bribery is hardly about "level" at all
BAE is a weapons manufacturer who sells death making equipment to some very dodgy people - note they sold their last commercial aircraft biz to Airbus some time ago - so they cant be seen to give a flying monkeys about anything other than the bottom line. They start of from a morally dubiuos place and they then compound it via bribery

Not something that, as a country, we should be in any way pleased about

And morality does matter, not because I am a religious nutter, far from it, but using the same justification surely we ought to be exporting smack?

Big seller, big demand, etc

 

[hipipol]

Are you deaf? Or just plain stupid. I told you to fuck off. Do it, and do it now.

( Get the idea? Effectively this is what you are advocating to the governments of sovereign states. Just as I have no power to compel you to fuck off, Britain has neither power nor right to dictate business practice to other nations. )

Quite how this nation can claim any moral authority whilst Mandelson is part of government escapes me, it also speaks volumes concerning the morality of brown, given that Mandelson was forced out of a cabinet position, in disgrace, twice.

I see
So you wish the "sword of british justice" - to quote just one disgraced Tory thief - to be blunted?
Its not a party political matter
We have no Empire
We are not a "power"
This is not the 19c
Most European countries seem to do OK with a huge arms industry
it doesn't have to like France - which bribes its way to deal after deal no question
WE can have DECENT lives without this crap

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Level playing fields?

Bribery is hardly about "level" at all

BAE is a weapons manufacturer who sells death making equipment to some very dodgy people - note they sold their last commercial aircraft biz to Airbus some time ago - so they cant be seen to give a flying monkeys about anything other than the bottom line. They start of from a morally dubiuos place and they then compound it via bribery



Not something that, as a country, we should be in any way pleased about



And morality does matter, not because I am a religious nutter, far from it, but using the same justification surely we ought to be exporting smack?



Big seller, big demand, etc

You have to separate the issue about whether arms sales are a good thing from the bribery one. Except, I suppose, that if you think that arms sales are morally wrong then surely the felony is compounded if the kit you sell is cost-effective and enhances the lethality of the armed forces. Poor value sales would be more ethical.

Exporting smack? Why not? It doesn't do any harm, really. Exporting prohibition is something rather crap that Western governments do, and I'd be delighted if they stopped.

 

[Andy the Don]

Personally, I think it is a bag of bollocks. It should be no concern of the British government how a company conducts its business. In some parts of the world, ' an inducement ' is the norm, why hamstring a huge earner of foreign exchange in this neo-Puritan manner?

Rubbish, of course it is a concern of the British government. A UK company is regulated by UK law and if that company breaks UK law, as bae regularly do, they should be prosecuted. Just because UK PLC has allowed bae to become a huge defence contractor it does not mean that the Prime Minister should decree that bea are untouchable. What is corruption is the revolving door between mostly non-miltary MOD civil servants and bae. bae is a corrupt organisation getting fat on by fleecing some poor soldier on the NWF. with late, over budgeted useless equipment. Which could have been sourced from overseas, well anywhere apart from USA, cheaper, quicker and more effectively.
So to answer the OP's question; if it involves bae, as a rule of thumb, it's a bribe..

 

[Sasaferrato]

If the government gives a fuck about what I do with my money, which they do because if I tried massive fraud i'd get well and truly fucked by the government - why shouldn't the same apply to BAE?

Because BAE were operating in a market where such behaviour is the norm.

I don't think that doing business in this manner is desirable, it isn't, and wont be tolerated in many countries; however, why should a French, or German company get the business because they are not hampered by their government?

The French are probably the most blatantly amoral country in the world, one could almost admire their sheer brass neck.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Rubbish, of course it is a concern of the British government. A UK company is regulated by UK law and if that company breaks UK law, as bae regularly do, they should be prosecuted. Just because UK PLC has allowed bae to become a huge defence contractor it does not mean that the Prime Minister should decree that bea are untouchable. What is corruption is the revolving door between mostly non-miltary MOD civil servants and bae. bae is a corrupt organisation getting fat on by fleecing some poor soldier on the NWF. with late, over budgeted useless equipment. Which could have been sourced from overseas, well anywhere apart from USA, cheaper, quicker and more effectively.
So to answer the OP's question; if it involves bae, as a rule of thumb, it's a bribe..

So, what do you propose is done about France? They will sell anything to anyone.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I see
So you wish the "sword of british justice" - to quote just one disgraced Tory thief - to be blunted?
Its not a party political matter
We have no Empire
We are not a "power"
This is not the 19c
Most European countries seem to do OK with a huge arms industry
it doesn't have to like France - which bribes its way to deal after deal no question
WE can have DECENT lives without this crap

Yes, we can. How do you enforce it though? ( Serious question. Unless action is taken against the purchasing countries, it will continue.One could argue that the primary fault is not with BAE, it is with those in the purchasing countries that will not do business without it. )

 

[newharper]

Quite.



Hypocrisy? Certainly. Hubris? Absolutely. A blatant case of double standards? Without doubt.

Yes indeed.

The thoughtful citizen should be concerned about many aspects of this unique industry. We make drug dealing illegal because of the destruction that addictive substances cause to the individual and society. We regulate closely the tobacco industry because its products reduce the life span of smokers. Yet we exult in being a world leader in the production and export of weapons that are designed to kill.

Air Marshal Sir Timothy Garden served in the Ministry of Defence from 1987 to 1994. He is currently visiting professor at the Centre for Defence Studies, King's College, London, working on European defence issues.


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=154861

 

[Andy the Don]

So, what do you propose is done about France? They will sell anything to anyone.

Yes I know they would. About a year before the Iranian elections,Siemens/Nokia sold the Iranian goverment a internet monitoring system, that most likely is now being used to track disdents through their internet traffic, the carted off for some light torture.. I am not some naive youth from the lower 6th, I know what happens. But it does not mean that I have to like it.
You as an ex-service man must know that as no other country apart from the UK and any third world nasty being heavily bribe would buy the rubbish bae produce.

 

[hipipol]

Yes, we can. How do you enforce it though? ( Serious question. Unless action is taken against the purchasing countries, it will continue.One could argue that the primary fault is not with BAE, it is with those in the purchasing countries that will not do business without it. )

Well unless I am entirely mistaken any citizen of the EU can actually pursue any firm for an action that contravenes EU law, so the French could be brought to heel re the total domination of say Francophone African countries purchase of high tech kit
It is worth noting that France continues to subsidise students from former colonies education in France, upshot of which is that they think of the French equipment they trained on, wheras we have done the opposite (another very short term Thatcherist innovation) I saw a study of the penetration of the Malaysian market by UK companies, which up until the late 80s were bigger buyers of electircla, electronic, etc kit from the UK. 10 years after the sudden increase in student fees, Malaysia starts buying a lot of japanese and US kit - I think there is a coeerlation. It depends on how long a view you have and in manufacturing the long view is the only one
If price is pretty similar and funcionality the same, you buy from you mates, simple as

 

[Andy the Don]

Because BAE were operating in a market where such behaviour is the norm.

So were those working in the slave trade. It did not then and does not now make it right..

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yes indeed.






Air Marshal Sir Timothy Garden served in the Ministry of Defence from 1987 to 1994. He is currently visiting professor at the Centre for Defence Studies, King's College, London, working on European defence issues.


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=154861

The morality of the arms industry in general, is quite another matter.

Unless Britain disarms, what right do we have to obstruct the sale of arms to others?

Corruption in other governments is cited, yet our current government could certainly be regarded as corrupt.

Until nations trust one another completely, there will be arms and armies.

 

[hipipol]

The morality of the arms industry in general, is quite another matter.

Unless Britain disarms, what right do we have to obstruct the sale of arms to others?

Corruption in other governments is cited, yet our current government could certainly be regarded as corrupt.

Until nations trust one another completely, there will be arms and armies.

In which, Hamas dollars are as good as anyones, dont you agree?

I mean, they are an elected Govt?

 

[Sasaferrato]

So were those working in the slave trade. It did not then and does not now make it right..

The slave trade is rather like the arms industry; in its day, it was legal. Britain facilitated the slave trade to retain a dominant world position, that was the ethos of the day. You cannot judge the slave trade by today's standards; who knows, in a century or so, the arms trade may be viewed with similar repugnance.

 

[Sasaferrato]

In which, Hamas dollars are as good as anyones, dont you agree?

I mean, they are an elected Govt?

Yes, they are, sort of. I oppose arming Hamas for their own good. If they were to attack Israel with heavy weapons, the response would be a death toll in the millions. Who wants that.

Again, a different aspect to that of the OP.

 

[Balbi]

Yes, they are, sort of. I oppose arming Hamas for their own good. If they were to attack Israel with heavy weapons, the response would be a death toll in the millions. Who wants that.

Again, a different aspect to that of the OP.

Israel for one, they're itching for an excuse to wipe Gaza and the West Bank off the map.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Well unless I am entirely mistaken any citizen of the EU can actually pursue any firm for an action that contravenes EU law, so the French could be brought to heel re the total domination of say Francophone African countries purchase of high tech kit
It is worth noting that France continues to subsidise students from former colonies education in France, upshot of which is that they think of the French equipment they trained on, wheras we have done the opposite (another very short term Thatcherist innovation) I saw a study of the penetration of the Malaysian market by UK companies, which up until the late 80s were bigger buyers of electircla, electronic, etc kit from the UK. 10 years after the sudden increase in student fees, Malaysia starts buying a lot of japanese and US kit - I think there is a coeerlation. It depends on how long a view you have and in manufacturing the long view is the only one
If price is pretty similar and funcionality the same, you buy from you mates, simple as

Yep, that does make sense. We do train the officer corps of friendly countries at Sandhurst though.

 

[MikeMcc]

Yes indeed.






Air Marshal Sir Timothy Garden served in the Ministry of Defence from 1987 to 1994. He is currently visiting professor at the Centre for Defence Studies, King's College, London, working on European defence issues.


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=154861

Minor detail - he died in 2007.

 

[MikeMcc]

Getting back to the OP and disregarding the morality of selling weapons. IMO the difference between a bribe and a commission is that a commission is subject to a formal contract.

 

[hipipol]

Yep, that does make sense. We do train the officer corps of friendly countries at Sandhurst though.

We brongs us back to the US excuse for bailing out AIG, too big to fail
BAE has got away with so much as its very important for the UK economy - your point about Sandhurst is telling - why not UMIST or Loughborough, good engineering schools which essentially looks at the skill set which BAE has turned entirely toward arms production

The enigineering history of the UK equals Germany at least, however they are perceived as being better at most commercial applications of such tech, people look to us for weapons - a much surer route to the murky deal scenario - though I do suspect that Mecedes Benz were not best pleased to be the African Dictators ride of choice, it did result in massive sales of their cars by everyone else who dreamed of being the next Colonel/President!!!!

Its really dangerous for any economy to put all its eggs in one basket, or in the case of the UK, two, fin servs and arms
They then become vital to us and asorts of excesses are excused - bribery being only one obvious danger - but selling leg irons to SA during "apart-hate" and extending loans to dictators - being typical side effects

In the long run its very, very dangerous

 

[8115]

When BAE do it, it's bribery. That's the rule of thumb I use.

 

[8115]

Joking aside, a commision would go to the intermediary who organised the deal, like "if I sell five warships, you'll get 2%", and a bribe would be in a private capacity, usually not to an intermediary, to make sure that the deal happened.

 

[Sasaferrato]

We brongs us back to the US excuse for bailing out AIG, too big to fail
BAE has got away with so much as its very important for the UK economy - your point about Sandhurst is telling - why not UMIST or Loughborough, good engineering schools which essentially looks at the skill set which BAE has turned entirely toward arms production

The enigineering history of the UK equals Germany at least, however they are perceived as being better at most commercial applications of such tech, people look to us for weapons - a much surer route to the murky deal scenario - though I do suspect that Mecedes Benz were not best pleased to be the African Dictators ride of choice, it did result in massive sales of their cars by everyone else who dreamed of being the next Colonel/President!!!!

Its really dangerous for any economy to put all its eggs in one basket, or in the case of the UK, two, fin servs and arms
They then become vital to us and asorts of excesses are excused - bribery being only one obvious danger - but selling leg irons to SA during "apart-hate" and extending loans to dictators - being typical side effects

In the long run its very, very dangerous

I don't disagree with what you say. It is odious, and, whereas two primary revenue streams is dangerous, it does not make sense to crucify BAE at present. A gradual drawdown would avoid a hell of a lot of people on the job market the same time. There is the ideal, and there is the best compromise. I can live with a gradual withdrawal, in the interest of the employees. Easy to take the moral high ground, not so easy when your arse is hanging through your trousers.

 

[weltweit]

Getting back to the OP and disregarding the morality of selling weapons. IMO the difference between a bribe and a commission is that a commission is subject to a formal contract.

Actually I think I have it now.

A bribe is when money (or benefits) are paid to people actually involved in the purchasing decision.

A commissioned agent may be trying to influence the decision and that is what he or she is paid for but they are not actually directly involved in making the purchase decision.

 

[likesfish]

the tanazania deal is the most blantant selling crap that was uneeded at vastly inflated prices and a 1/3rd of the price going on "comissions"

if Hamas or israel brought BAE kit the war would be over as it does'nt work.

We should encourage BAE to sell as many SA80a1s to dodgy dictators as there as tough as choccy flakes and once broken don't even make good clubs the bayonets break easy and are blunt

BAE we deliver world peace as nobody can afford spares for our kit and it does'nt work anyway