Bad Reference Problem

[Zinedine*]

last year, I got sacked for drinking too much before a shift. My department manager said she would still give me a good reference and not mention it. I havnt really worked since. But I just started a really good job but got called in to say that one of my references came back to say I had been sacked for gross misconduct. So, I have lost another job!

What do I do? If they are gonna say this, I'm never gonna get another job again!

if I left that job out of my CV, would I get away with explaining a 19 month gap as travelling? It is my last employer (the jobs I have done since have been one temp job for two weeks and one temp job for 4 weeks) So they will ask them for a reference if I put them down.

If I did lie, Is there anyway they could find out?

 

[Giles]

last year, I got sacked for drinking too much before a shift. My department manager said she would still give me a good reference and not mention it. I havnt really worked since. But I just started a really good job but got called in to say that one of my references came back to say I had been sacked for gross misconduct. So, I have lost another job!

What do I do? If they are gonna say this, I'm never gonna get another job again!

if I left that job out of my CV, would I get away with explaining a 19 month gap as travelling? It is my last employer (the jobs I have done since have been one temp job for two weeks and one temp job for 4 weeks) So they will ask them for a reference if I put them down.

If I did lie, Is there anyway they could find out?

Very unlikely. And if they did, they would only sack you, so you wouldn't be any worse off than if you told the truth and didn't get the job in the first place.

Giles..

 

[Zinedine*]

Very unlikely. And if they did, they would only sack you, so you wouldn't be any worse off than if you told the truth and didn't get the job in the first place.

Giles..

Thank you. there are a couple of things I can say I have been doing. For example, I could say i worked in France and give the address of my parents house there as my work place.

I was just worries that the payroll people would be told by Inland revenue or Social Security about my earnings in the past year.

 

[Derian]

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3461561&postcount=8

Fuck. That thread And the outcome of that issue back to haunt.

So I take it that you didn't appeal and the official record of gross misconduct stands.

They don't have much choice but to give the true reason for your termination - to do otherwise would leave them vulnerable to being sued by a new employer.

I suggest that one course of action is to contact your department manager to see if she will provide a reference for you. That way you can put her down as the point of contact instead of the employer/HR department and any new employer might be happy with that. I wouldn't hold out too much hope though as she might be reluctant to do that because she herself could be held liable. But you can try. If she's prepared to give a written testimonial that you can show any new employer/s that might be useful.

You could lie. But there's always the chance that you would get found out and be dismissed for that - which would then give you two dismissals against your employment record. Not all employers carry out background checks but some do.

You could try being honest and telling any prospective employers exactly what happened - emphasise the points that I made in my original post. That you felt that you had been procedurally and morally unfairly dismissed but decided not to pursue the matter on the basis that you would be given a fair reference - which they have since failed to do reinforcing the unfairness of your original treatment. If I were an employer I would appreciate the honesty and maybe give you the benefit of any doubt.

Ask to see the reference that was given - if there's anything that's factually incorrect you might have the basis for some recourse against your old employer for that.

It's a tough one. Good luck.

 

[Derian]

I've just seen your conversation with Giles. Meh, if you can convince them you were working for your parents in France that's an angle to try. Loads of employers don't follow up and compare Revenue/payroll/earnings records (for example). But some do. There's loads of posters that will be along shortly to give you experience of both! Some of whom carry out reference/background checking as a job.

Whatever works for you.

 

[Zinedine*]

I did appeal, but they were insistent that it was gross misconduct (staff handbook did mention this). I had worked there 1 month short of a year

I just wish that I hadnt been honest just before I got the sack. My manager (in the company that gave me a dodgy reference) asked me directly 'were you drunk?' I said yes. If I had said no they would have had to prove it.

Honestly is not the best policy.

I'm am now putting together a bullshit CV. Including really bigging myself up in other posts. But I will be reading this thread ver carefully before I send it off.

My next course of action is actually sending my CV to an agency I used to work with, In the hope I can get some temp jobs in local government. (they may not even want references as I worked for them previously back in 2001).

 

[Derian]

So did you put her down as the referee (rather than the central HR or whatever)? Might be worth following up. Yes, in retrospect admitting that you were drunk may not have been the best thing to do - but hindsight vision's always 20/20 sadly. Still doesn't mean that they dismissed you fairly though, they were well out on the procedure.

I don't suppose you're in the mood for a bunfight (especially if you can work your way out of this by way of the CV/parents abroad/friendly agency) but IF you do ... one angle is to make a data subject access request under the Data Protection Act. Ask for your personal records INCLUDING references given. They have 40 days maximum to comply and the most they can charge you is a tenner. Once you've got a copy of your personal records you can then see if anything is wrong or incomplete then demand to have the record amended. I.E. They are under a duty to provide a factual reference that doesn't mislead. If they are providing references which are incomplete e.g. saying you were dismissed for gross misconduct (factually correct) but omitting that you were unfairly dismissed (how they handled it) then that is misleading to a new employer and you can take it up with them. Potentially.

Just a thought if your other plans don't work out. Just be a constant pain in their side until you get an agreed reference wording.

Fingers crossed mate.

 

[Giles]

Or, if you can hack it, stick to a few more temping jobs, telling the temp agency you've been travelling or something, for at least a few months until the bad reference job starts to recede over the horizon. At least til its out of the current tax year, so no paranoid worries about new job's payroll people somehow finding out.

Giles..

 

[Zinedine*]

Or, if you can hack it, stick to a few more temping jobs, telling the temp agency you've been travelling or something, for at least a few months until the bad reference job starts to recede over the horizon. At least til its out of the current tax year, so no paranoid worries about new job's payroll people somehow finding out.

Giles..

Thats what I'm thinking. Local Government temping jobs tend to be long term. When companies ask for references they tend to ask for two (one being your last employer). I just need a substantial amount of work for the next 6 months really.

If I miss out the company that sacked me, I have a gap from September 2004 to now. I could easily account for the last 6 months without a full blown lie, just streching the truth a bit. I could also account for July and August 2005 by saying I did volunatry work which I can 'prove'(but is a lie).

This will leave me with a gap of 10 months, which is still a substantial gap but could easily be seen as 'travelling'.

I dont think it would make my CV look too strange as it would look as though I did temping work for 3 years after uni, then went travelling.

 

[Zinedine*]

So did you put her down as the referee (rather than the central HR or whatever)? Might be worth following up. Yes, in retrospect admitting that you were drunk may not have been the best thing to do - but hindsight vision's always 20/20 sadly. Still doesn't mean that they dismissed you fairly though, they were well out on the procedure.

I don't suppose you're in the mood for a bunfight (especially if you can work your way out of this by way of the CV/parents abroad/friendly agency) but IF you do ... one angle is to make a data subject access request under the Data Protection Act. Ask for your personal records INCLUDING references given. They have 40 days maximum to comply and the most they can charge you is a tenner. Once you've got a copy of your personal records you can then see if anything is wrong or incomplete then demand to have the record amended. I.E. They are under a duty to provide a factual reference that doesn't mislead. If they are providing references which are incomplete e.g. saying you were dismissed for gross misconduct (factually correct) but omitting that you were unfairly dismissed (how they handled it) then that is misleading to a new employer and you can take it up with them. Potentially.

Just a thought if your other plans don't work out. Just be a constant pain in their side until you get an agreed reference wording.

Fingers crossed mate.

Yes, I put her down as a referee, I don't know why it was directed to HR.

The company tha decided not to employ me (or sack me after 4 days), were very honest with me. They said that the HR person (who is actually a director of the company) wasnt ready to admit it was Gross misconduct until they were pushed for it. the conversation apparantly went some thing like this;

HR PERSON: We had to let him go
NEW EMPLOYER: Why?
HR PERSON: err... We wasnt willing to keep him in employment with this company
NEW EMPLOYER: What was the reason for terminating his employment?
HR PERSON: His actions were not in line with company policy, we felt ...er... we couldnt keep him on
NEW EMPLOYER: We need a reason for terminating his employment. Was it Gross Misconduct?
HR PERSON: eer...well...yes

I think they are worried otherwise they would have just said it straight. (the man in question is usually very straight talking).

I think the best course of action is for me to write to the company that just sacked me and ask what actually happened. I dont even know if they wrote to them first or what. Then take it from there.

I have worked hard at uni and would eventually like a career that I could progress in. The higher I go up in a career, the more likely they are to check my my past employnment is acurate. So I may need them as a referee at a later date. Its obvious now that I can't trust the fact that the reference will go to my old manager. So I really have to take action on this.

 

[Derian]

Yes, I put her down as a referee, I don't know why it was directed to HR.

The company tha decided not to employ me (or sack me after 4 days), were very honest with me. They said that the HR person (who is actually a director of the company) wasnt ready to admit it was Gross misconduct until they were pushed for it. the conversation apparantly went some thing like this;

HR PERSON: We had to let him go
NEW EMPLOYER: Why?
HR PERSON: err... We wasnt willing to keep him in employment with this company
NEW EMPLOYER: What was the reason for terminating his employment?
HR PERSON: His actions were not in line with company policy, we felt ...er... we couldnt keep him on
NEW EMPLOYER: We need a reason for terminating his employment. Was it Gross Misconduct?
HR PERSON: eer...well...yes

I think they are worried otherwise they would have just said it straight. (the man in question is usually very straight talking).

I think the best course of action is for me to write to the company that just sacked me and ask what actually happened. I dont even know if they wrote to them first or what. Then take it from there.

I have worked hard at uni and would eventually like a career that I could progress in. The higher I go up in a career, the more likely they are to check my my past employnment is acurate. So I may need them as a referee at a later date. Its obvious now that I can't trust the fact that the reference will go to my old manager. So I really have to take action on this.

Ah right. Good they've told you what happened, you've got a starting point as you say.

I agree about needing to take action - you can at least make them wary to the point that they refuse to give any references and then you can always say that their policy is not to give references at all - a lot of employers do this.

But what Giles said also holds true. The greater the length of time with a track record, the less likely that a 'youthful misdemeanour' (heh) is going to weigh against you too much.

 

[Zinedine*]

Do you think, that in the first instance a nice letter explaining my problems in now securing a job would be best? Asking if there is any way he could re-word my reasons for leaving. Explaning that I worked hard for the company and had worked there for a comparitivley long time.

If this fails, start to get a bit nastier as then I have nothing to lose.

 

[Derian]

Do you think, that in the first instance a nice letter explaining my problems in now securing a job would be best? Asking if there is any way he could re-word my reasons for leaving. Explaning that I worked hard for the company and had worked there for a comparitivley long time.

If this fails, start to get a bit nastier as then I have nothing to lose.

No harm in trying. He might be a bit worried/reluctant because of their potential liability though. You could give it a go - also add in that you were promised a decent reference which is why you let the matter drop at the time. Do the ... surprised, disappointed and appealing to their better nature bit.

As you say, nothing to lose (unless you admit in the letter that they are in anyway entitled to give the references they have - then you lose strength if things get nastier later)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i think you need legal advice and you need to sue at this point the original action was not appropreate or justified the continueation of the problem they created in the first place is now detrimential and impunes your characther (you are being left at a detriment by their actions...)

 

[franklin1777]

Yes, I put her down as a referee, I don't know why it was directed to HR.

The company tha decided not to employ me (or sack me after 4 days), were very honest with me. They said that the HR person (who is actually a director of the company) wasnt ready to admit it was Gross misconduct until they were pushed for it. the conversation apparantly went some thing like this;

HR PERSON: We had to let him go
NEW EMPLOYER: Why?
HR PERSON: err... We wasnt willing to keep him in employment with this company
NEW EMPLOYER: What was the reason for terminating his employment?
HR PERSON: His actions were not in line with company policy, we felt ...er... we couldnt keep him on
NEW EMPLOYER: We need a reason for terminating his employment. Was it Gross Misconduct?
HR PERSON: eer...well...yes

Hang on a second, so your new company acted on a verbal reference. Ohh Derian I need a second opinion, verbal references arent useable. The line I know is that a verbal reference isnt worth the paper it is written on. Having never been in the situation only heard about it as a HR legend. A person giving a verbal reference without putting it in writing can be sued for slander. (Also Data protection breach)

In your case a letter to both companies pointing this out could clear up if not this mess then any further mess.

Having said that I could be completly wrong, hence why I am asking for second opinions. What do other HR bods think?

 

[koroba]

For what its worth, in our place, we are allowed to give references, for people who have worked in our departments, but all references have to be countersigned by the boss, so nothing gets past the system.

 

[mhendo]

I was just worries that the payroll people would be told by Inland revenue or Social Security about my earnings in the past year.

Could this really happen? Does the government share your past, private financial details with prospective or new employers?

That seems to me like an incredible breach of privacy.

 

[Radar]

Could this really happen? Does the government share your past, private financial details with prospective or new employers?

That seems to me like an incredible breach of privacy.

Your last employer is on your P45, unless you sign on in the meantime. Then it looks like you worked for the DSS

I wonder would they issue a sanitised P45 on request ?

 

[Markyd]

I was just worries that the payroll people would be told by Inland revenue or Social Security about my earnings in the past year.

Not going to happen!

 

[mhendo]

Your last employer is on your P45, unless you sign on in the meantime. Then it looks like you worked for the DSS

I wonder would they issue a sanitised P45 on request ?

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, as i don't live in the UK.

Is your previous salary on your P45 as well?

I understand that your new employer might know whom you worked for, but is it also their right to know how much you earned?

 

[Radar]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, as i don't live in the UK.

Is your previous salary on your P45 as well?

I understand that your new employer might know whom you worked for, but is it also their right to know how much you earned?

Can't find my own one at the moment (last time I saw it was when I wiped my arse on it after parting company with my last employer ), but I don't think it is.

 

[equationgirl]

From what I remember about P45s it will have how much you've earned in the tax year to date, how much you've paid in tax and your tax code on leaving.

 

[Radar]

Whoops I've just found an example (.pdf) P45 on the web, and it does indeed have salary details for the past year.

Less wiping, more looking

 

[Zinedine*]

From what I remember about P45s it will have how much you've earned in the tax year to date, how much you've paid in tax and your tax code on leaving.

i did a quick stint at an agency after I left (for one week). Agencies don't give you a P45 unless you ask to be taken off their books.

 

[Markyd]

A P45 is provided by you last employer to enable your new employer to have the details required to calculate your tax (i.e. pay to date and Tax code to operate) If you don't have a P45 your employer can use a form P46 or I think a P15 to notify the tax office and recieve the relevant tax code for you.

HMRC can not divulge information.

Hope this helps.

 

[Zinedine*]

A P45 is provided by you last employer to enable your new employer to have the details required to calculate your tax (i.e. pay to date and Tax code to operate) If you don't have a P45 your employer can use a form P46 or I think a P15 to notify the tax office and recieve the relevant tax code for you.

HMRC can not divulge information.

Hope this helps.

Yes this helps a lot. thank you very much.

 

[Markyd]

Yes this helps a lot. thank you very much.

Any more Pm me.