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'Baby P' dies of child abuse - photos now released

treefrog said:
I think you miss my point. I'm by no means suggesting that everyone is a potential child-murderer (seems a bit odd you'd think I had), more that people find it very hard to accept that things like this happen in families and places that are very like theirs. It makes abuse uncomfortably close. Far easier to imagine the junkies, the nonce behind the hedge, than accept that abusers are in every other way no different to the rest of us.

I speak from experience. After I went to the police about my abuse when I was 11, some of my friends weren't allowed to play with me any more by their parents. You can't imagine how that rejection felt, and all because what had happened to me made other people uncomfortable.

I'm also not suggesting people who commit such crimes are given hugs and kittens (again, WTF?). I'm suggesting that it would be far better if people who had the IMPULSES to do such things could be given help by the authorities, instead of being left until something DOES happen, by which time it's too late. Believe me, I'm the last fucking person who thinks people who rape and beat up kids deserve second chances.

I'm merely suggesting we as a society intervene before it gets to that stage.
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How do you propose these people be identified?
 
Homeless Mal said:
How do you propose these people be identified?
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You know what? I've no idea. funny the way child rapists and abusers look like everyone else.

As I said in an earlier post, and I appreciate I'm no expert, if we as a society accepted that this does happen, and more often than the headline cases, and if there was a way that people who had urges to do the terrible, terrible things we've heard about today could get help in some way before they acted on it, then maybe stuff like this wouldn't be such a depressing certainty.

But then, this thread has upset me enough already, and I doubt I'm making myself clear enough.
 
It's a horrible situation. I imagine the atmosphre in the haringey offices this afternoon would have been tight and just plain desperate. :(
 
treefrog said:
I think you miss my point. I'm by no means suggesting that everyone is a potential child-murderer (seems a bit odd you'd think I had), more that people find it very hard to accept that things like this happen in families and places that are very like theirs. It makes abuse uncomfortably close. Far easier to imagine the junkies, the nonce behind the hedge, than accept that abusers are in every other way no different to the rest of us.

I speak from experience. After I went to the police about my abuse when I was 11, some of my friends weren't allowed to play with me any more by their parents. You can't imagine how that rejection felt, and all because what had happened to me made other people uncomfortable.

I'm also not suggesting people who commit such crimes are given hugs and kittens (again, WTF?). I'm suggesting that it would be far better if people who had the IMPULSES to do such things could be given help by the authorities, instead of being left until something DOES happen, by which time it's too late. Believe me, I'm the last fucking person who thinks people who rape and beat up kids deserve second chances.

I'm merely suggesting we as a society intervene before it gets to that stage.
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I'm sorry I misunderstood you - it was the bit where you said 'People don't want to hold the mirror up to the incredibly dark things that people like them do'. I do get what you're trying to say but I think I find it too upsetting to contemplate anything other than a huge gulf between most kinds of abuse (and I know it's pretty common) and the kind that systematically beats a baby to death. That's possibly/probably a failure on my part.

And yes, society should intervene. But I don't know how we can make that happen. I think there is a difference between a single person lashing out at their partner and/or child(ren) in stress and systematic abuse by a group of people which is what this was. This wasn't about someone losing their rag, this was about pleasure.

Sorry, I'm really not explaining myself very well :o
 
Aww Treefrog. :(

I've worked with several young women who allowed this to happen. They flash pics about on their mobile phones, they make a song and dance around birthdays etc etc, yet none of them say 'How could I?' or anything of that ilk. They all seem to have come from similar homes as well, where abuses of all manner went unnoticed and uncared for. And then the issue becomes one of gradation of scale, human capacity for openning one's eyes, human capacity for caring for oneself and one's pains, and no-one else can intervene in that process, because it is by nature evolutionary in a sense. Those are the issues for me, and how can they be blamed on a body of human beings who work a job.
 
trashpony said:
I'm sorry I misunderstood you - it was the bit where you said 'People don't want to hold the mirror up to the incredibly dark things that people like them do'. I do get what you're trying to say but I think I find it too upsetting to contemplate anything other than a huge gulf between most kinds of abuse (and I know it's pretty common) and the kind that systematically beats a baby to death. That's possibly/probably a failure on my part.

And yes, society should intervene. But I don't know how we can make that happen. I think there is a difference between a single person lashing out at their partner and/or child(ren) in stress and systematic abuse by a group of people which is what this was. This wasn't about someone losing their rag, this was about pleasure.

Sorry, I'm really not explaining myself very well :o
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It's OK. Like I said earlier, it's taken me a long time to get to the stage of being able to contemplate having kids of my own, as I used to have this fear that they would not be safe with anyone else, and that fear like that would make a child's life hellish. Trusting people after abuse is not easy :(

I don't think this is just about about pleasure. Actually, I can't believe that. I have to believe that there's self-loathing, hatred, fear and other stuff in there. If the people who do these things do them without a shred of remorse, then....fuck. I don't know.
 
trashpony said:
I'm sorry I misunderstood you - it was the bit where you said 'People don't want to hold the mirror up to the incredibly dark things that people like them do'. I do get what you're trying to say but I think I find it too upsetting to contemplate anything other than a huge gulf between most kinds of abuse (and I know it's pretty common) and the kind that systematically beats a baby to death. That's possibly/probably a failure on my part.

And yes, society should intervene. But I don't know how we can make that happen. I think there is a difference between a single person lashing out at their partner and/or child(ren) in stress and systematic abuse by a group of people which is what this was. This wasn't about someone losing their rag, this was about pleasure.

Sorry, I'm really not explaining myself very well :o
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Did they systematically beat him to death tho or did they lash out? Were they sorry afterwards? Did they look at the bruise and cringe and that be too awful and so they cuddled him and comforted him and did not think to wonder why he suddenly required no comfort from them, or miraculously settled down? Were they living in general with so much of this nature already present that the realities of what was afoot was normalised? Or so awful, it gets relegated to the dark space in their minds where the rest of ti resides? And was general life so chaotic that in the morning something else occured, and then something else and it just got forgotten until he cried for something else and then got bashed round the ear again?

I had so much bruising my mother kept me off school at times. At other times, I hid it myself. Who was going to save me? And like Treefrog, people's parents said 'Its better not to get involved.'
 
treefrog said:
It's OK. Like I said earlier, it's taken me a long time to get to the stage of being able to contemplate having kids of my own, as I used to have this fear that they would not be safe with anyone else, and that fear like that would make a child's life hellish. Trusting people after abuse is not easy :(

I don't think this is just about about pleasure. Actually, I can't believe that. I have to believe that there's self-loathing, hatred, fear and other stuff in there. If the people who do these things do them without a shred of remorse, then....fuck. I don't know.
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I think I have to think that or it is too fucking depressing for words but you're probably right and I'm wrong. I hope you are.

And you will make an ace mum you know. I hope you do get to that point where you do it and don't just contemplate it
 
Homeless Mal said:
From what I read after Climbie one big problem was race - black social workers thinking they knew best for black children and everyone running around frightened of racism. I could understand that.

Another factor was being unable to sack poor staff that had worked for the council for years. They wouldn't go and new staff with any potential wouldn't stay. I remember reading one social worker saying that Climbie could have potentially happened to any of them.
Sounded like an awful negative working environment.
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It could still be discrimination, I'm certain that when this was reported in my local paper when it happened, (this happened near me),it was reported that they were from a travellers background. Of course I could have remembered this wrong....
 
pinkmonkey said:
It could still be discrimination, I'm certain that when this was reported in my local paper when it happened, (this happened near me),it was reported that they were from a travellers background. Of course I could have remembered this wrong....
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Climbie was from the Ivory Coast and her 'aunt' was too and she lived in France prior to coming to UK. I don't think they were travellers :confused:
 
trashpony said:
Well obviously people blame the psycho fuckers that did it and the mother that stood by and let them. But the fact that the 'During the court case it emerged that the boy - known as Baby P - had been visited 60 times over eight months by social workers, police and health professionals' does raise some cause for concern doesn't it?

Or do you think it's alright for the system to utterly fail children like this? I'm a bit mystified why you've started this thread tbh
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Indeed - the relevant social workers and the corrupt management that managed to merely give them a weee warning (as opposed to ensuring that they never work in a responsible job ever again) should all be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter.
 
Cobbles said:
Indeed - the relevant social workers and the corrupt management that managed to merely give them a weee warning (as opposed to ensuring that they never work in a responsible job ever again) should all be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter.
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Corporate manslaughter a baby does not kill.
 
Melinda said:
God the computer model of the baby the BBC put up on screen, annotated with the injuries...

I cant find the words.
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that was fucking disgusting IMHO, why did they feel the need to show that so graphically? and C4, with their actors reconstruction and soundtrack of a baby screaming...
 
Although I am certain that the prime culprits in this matter are the dysfunctional family - I am also aware that these animals will be dealt with in prison. However, I think that trashpony & cobbles are on the right lines - This is the second time that Haringey council & their incompetent minions have let down a child which they are paid very well to protect.
I propose that The Proceeds of Crime Act is extended to cover the criminal incompetence of those directly involved - social services, police and health professionals - & this should extend as far up the hierarchy as possible. We all need to demand back the salaries & pensions that they supposedly "earned" whilst allowing another baby to suffer and die in unbelievable horror & loneliness. Make this not happen again. Demand accountability from these people.
With all your hearts reach out and hug this baby and do what you can to ensure that it won’t happen again.
 
macwill60 said:
Although I am certain that the prime culprits in this matter are the dysfunctional family - I am also aware that these animals will be dealt with in prison. However, I think that trashpony & cobbles are on the right lines - This is the second time that Haringey council & their incompetent minions have let down a child which they are paid very well to protect.
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I'm not defending Haringey Council.... but it's way too easy for society to turn round and say 'blame the social services we pay them to do this kind of things for us'. There's only a limited amount they can do.. the rest is up to the families themselves, friends, neighbours and every single one of us.
 
Cobbles said:
What was it, 60 visits and yet none of these highly trained "professionals" managed to spot anything wrong - pure gross negligence.
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We don't know the full circumstances.. and so we don't know what these 60 individuals spotted. It's clear something was wrong.. but whether it was one person, a handful or systematic error we just don't know yet.
 
Kizmet - thank you for your comments - & again I reiterate "the prime culprits in this matter are the dysfunctional family". However, I have little sway on the mental health of potential parents/carers - I do, however, pay my taxes willingly to ensure that a whole phalanx of civil servants work as hard as they can to defend the defenceless.

It may be a cliché but the expression "once is a mistake, twice is foolish but a third time is your responsibility" applies with the so called experts in Haringey. We are duty bound to find a way to stop this happening a third time in Haringey - or in our inaction, we become responsible also. I again reiterate extend “The Proceeds of Crime Act” & target these people on outcome.
 
Hey guys, I'm a Social worker in the North of England, wanna know where I lay the blame?
1. The new fad of "Solution focused therapy" which IMO rationalises away risk. (every social worker knows this except those who practice it)
2. Caseload (nuff said)
3. Why the fuck is the LA solicitor who advised the SW's they didn't have a case for a CO or an EPO not entirely blamed..and..
4. Why the fuck aren't the medics held responsible?

The 1989 Children Act removed all power from SW's (rightly so) in response to allegations of abuses of power. Now no ones in control and no one wants to be in control.
 
macwill60 said:
Kizmet - thank you for your comments - & again I reiterate "the prime culprits in this matter are the dysfunctional family". However, I have little sway on the mental health of potential parents/carers - I do, however, pay my taxes willingly to ensure that a whole phalanx of civil servants work as hard as they can to defend the defenceless.

It may be a cliché but the expression "once is a mistake, twice is foolish but a third time is your responsibility" applies with the so called experts in Haringey. We are duty bound to find a way to stop this happening a third time in Haringey
Click to expand...

And if we try and it happens again.. does that then mean that we also should be prosecuted under the proceeds act?
 
Reg Perrin said:
Hey guys, I'm a Social worker in the North of England, wanna know where I lay the blame?
1. The new fad of "Solution focused therapy" which IMO rationalises away risk. (every social worker knows this except those who practice it)
2. Caseload (nuff said)
3. Why the fuck is the LA solicitor who advised the SW's they didn't have a case for a CO or an EPO not entirely blamed..and..
4. Why the fuck aren't the medics held responsible?

The 1989 Children Act removed all power from SW's (rightly so) in response to allegations of abuses of power. Now no ones in control and no one wants to be in control.
Click to expand...

Please.. acronyms do my head in.
 
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