Aversives and dog training

[Pingu]

Exactly. But I can't see how anyone can question his logic. It's as fundamental as it gets.

Btw, apparently Milan has upset the establishment with his philosophy on the whole thing. I love it.

tbh that depends on yur stance with regards to pack ranking theories

over here jan fennel pontificated about them at length for a good while as some sort of panacea cureall for anything doggie related.

I am not so convinced. the theories originate from studies done by a guy called john fisher who was questioning the validity of his own findings towards the end.

I do not doubt that they do play a part in stuff esp with regards to dog/dog interactions but I am not so convinced when it comes to dog\human interactions. with a "normal" or submissive dog they do have benefits but when you come to deal with a very dominant or aggressive dog the ideas start floundering. if you are using ranking techniques to promote yourself and the dog is basically telling you to go do one as its sees itself as the dominant one eventualy you will come to a confrontation. not so bad if the dog in question is a westie but I really don't fancy that sort of confrontation with a fully grown akita\rottie\mastiff etc, its not going to end well.

to be fair to him you dont really see him trying that sort of stuff out on the bigger dogs but he does give the impression that it would work.

what I do like about what he does is he shows that by the humans changing their behaviour it infuences the dogs behaviour, which 9 times out of ten is what is required

 

[dilute micro]

tbh that depends on yur stance with regards to pack ranking theories

over here jan fennel pontificated about them at length for a good while as some sort of panacea cureall for anything doggie related.

I am not so convinced. the theories originate from studies done by a guy called john fisher who was questioning the validity of his own findings towards the end.

I do not doubt that they do play a part in stuff esp with regards to dog/dog interactions but I am not so convinced when it comes to dog\human interactions. with a "normal" or submissive dog they do have benefits but when you come to deal with a very dominant or aggressive dog the ideas start floundering. if you are using ranking techniques to promote yourself and the dog is basically telling you to go do one as its sees itself as the dominant one eventualy you will come to a confrontation. not so bad if the dog in question is a westie but I really don't fancy that sort of confrontation with a fully grown akita\rottie\mastiff etc, its not going to end well.

to be fair to him you dont really see him trying that sort of stuff out on the bigger dogs but he does give the impression that it would work.

what I do like about what he does is he shows that by the humans changing their behaviour it infuences the dogs behaviour, which 9 times out of ten is what is required

Nah he does do the big aggressive dogs. That was his specialty before what he does now. His theory is a little more complex than it sounds. There are different things that can bring about the same bad behavior in dogs, not all of it is simple pack ranking. He has to identify it first. For instance - and the most amazing - with the attack dogs sometimes the human is showing them they don't trust the dog and the dog responds by "if you don't trust me then I can't trust you" - and then attacks. It's amazing to see him defuse this. And he does this with what appears to be hardly any interaction with the dog. The dog just calms down. In this case it's not a "I'm tougher than you" thing.

 

[kabbes]

Cesar Milan is a bit of a phenomenon, but arguably the biggest problem with his methodology is that it takes Cesar Milan to make it work. He is pitch-perfect when it comes to his body language, his movements and his interactions. But it is no surprise that the people on his show always struggle to replicate his success. It takes a lifetime of trying and incredible self-control to get there.

As Pingu said, however, the best thing about him is that he shows that it is the human behaviour that is creating the dog behaviour. The message is loud and clear.

Incidentally, before rushing to worship Milan too much, it's worth noting that I've also seen the dog trainer we have now found, who only ever uses positive reinforcements and disagrees violently with Milan's methods (such as the choke chain) achieving just as much as I have ever seen Milan achieve. She also manages to deal with all kinds of horrendous behaviour and get the dog doing exactly what she wants in a surprisingly quick amount of time. But her approach, which is based around the dog being the dog and the human being the human, is far more likely to yield results for non-experts. IMO, anyway. And it feels much kinder too.

 

[dilute micro]

Cesar Milan is a bit of a phenomenon, but arguably the biggest problem with his methodology is that it takes Cesar Milan to make it work. He is pitch-perfect when it comes to his body language, his movements and his interactions. But it is no surprise that the people on his show always struggle to replicate his success. It takes a lifetime of trying and incredible self-control to get there.

As Pingu said, however, the best thing about him is that he shows that it is the human behaviour that is creating the dog behaviour. The message is loud and clear.

Incidentally, before rushing to worship Milan too much, it's worth noting that I've also seen the dog trainer we have now found, who only ever uses positive reinforcements and disagrees violently with Milan's methods (such as the choke chain) achieving just as much as I have ever seen Milan achieve. She also manages to deal with all kinds of horrendous behaviour and get the dog doing exactly what she wants in a surprisingly quick amount of time. But her approach, which is based around the dog being the dog and the human being the human, is far more likely to yield results for non-experts. IMO, anyway. And it feels much kinder too.

Really he does teach the people how to do it and it does work. But it's the people that are the hardest to train sometimes. They have to do the right things and starting from ignorance. I saw a Milan show recently where he gave up on a dog for a couple weeks because the owner wasn't serious about learning.

 

[zenie]

They don't want me at their classes, I think I asked too many questions! Maybe they thought I was a spy!

 

[dynamicbaddog]

There's hardly any dog training clubs in London, or at least I don't seem to be able to find them

There's a club run by Dog Borstal's Rob Alleyne in New Cross Gate - I'm not allowed to attend because of Jake's aggression to other dogs, but he has given me some good advice over the phone

 

[Strumpet]

Cesar Milan uses quite good methods imo, mimicking alpha male/pack leader etc.

I tend to like Cesar Millan's way though he's not 'training' but more about behavior. He's pure zen on dogs. I've not seen anything like him.

I love him too. Amazing man, fukn amazing. Am hooked.

Btw, apparently Milan has upset the establishment with his philosophy on the whole thing. I love it.

Heh

 

[kabbes]

Milan does, on the whole, tend to be a lot more popular with non-dog owners than with dog owners. As I said before, he is an amazing guy. But his techniques are not necessarily advisable for the average Joe.