Assault during Leeds anti-deportation demo

[In Bloom]

Lovely. So if a Socialist Worker or ANLer is found to be protesting at a Nash gathering, that "cunt" is fair game as well?

Nah, though I'd find it hard to have much sympathy for somebody who showed up completely on their own with the sole intention of getting into a needless ruck.

 

[In Bloom]

In Bloom, it sounds like you need some excitement in your life.

Why don't you take your skateboard down the town centre like all your mates do and stop fantasising about being a "hard man".

Either that or join the army.

Yawn.

I happen to have a lot of respect for what antifa do (even if I have some problems with the way they do it on occaission), partly because in some situations, it's extremely important and dangerous work that I probably couldn't do myself. Quite what that has to do with being a "hard man" mystifies me.

 

[Nixon]

Based on this kind of logic, then the police are presumably justified to wade in and discourage (with fists) anyone daring to turn up at Westminster with any form of banners or clothing that might annoy the Government who are gathered there.

Anyone that's walking around wearing insignia that is blatantly prejudiced needs a slap.People can believe and hate who they want because they always will,but walking around brazen as day almost advertising your extreme
views on your clothing and expecting people to just ignore it and to not react
to it in some way is slightly naiive.Especailly in an environment like that.Especially from a member of Wolf Hook's White Brotherhood" .

Protesters don't turn up with banners anything that will really piss off the government because when they do something extreme they get arrested or dealt with.Nazi's however don't seem to get arrested for flying their flags of WP on their clothing.Id say that's your difference.

 

[Cobbles]

Anyone that's walking around wearing insignia that is blatantly prejudiced needs a slap.

Why not just report them to the police - if there's that many people steamed up about their insignia, then they're conmmitting a public order offence.

Thuggery is simply repellent Anti-Fascist thugs are exactly the same as Fascist thugs, although you have to admit that it took a certain amount of cojones (as well as stupidity) for the Fascist to turn up , the cretins who beat him up simply showed their true colour as cowards.

 

[Tom A]

Nah, though I'd find it hard to have much sympathy for somebody who showed up completely on their own with the sole intention of getting into a needless ruck.

Assuming that he WAS there to "cause a needless ruck". I STILL don't see anything in the OP to suggest that.

(Cue yet another "well why was he here then?" reply)

 

[Tom A]

Why not just report them to the police - if there's that many people steamed up about their insignia, then they're conmmitting a public order offence.

Cause, being anarchists, the idea of getting the police and State to fight their battles for them is hypocrtical, hence why they feel like they have to resort to what is essentially vigilantism against the "enemy", whoever that may be.

 

[Cobbles]

Cause, being anarchists, the idea of getting the police and State to fight their battles for them is hypocrtical, hence why they feel like they have to resort to what is essentially vigilantism against the "enemy", whoever that may be.

What you meant to say was: "Cause, being muppets, they haven't got the intelligence to realise that without the organs of state maintaining justice, it all just devolves to the level of whichever bunch of boot boys has got better baseball bats being "right".

 

[In Bloom]

What you meant to say was: "Cause, being muppets, they haven't got the intelligence to realise that without the organs of state maintaining justice, it all just devolves to the level of whichever bunch of boot boys has got better baseball bats being "right".

Or alternatively "Cause, having some sense of context, they don't feel the need to conflate all forms of violence as if they're exactly identical"

 

[In Bloom]

Why not just report them to the police - if there's that many people steamed up about their insignia, then they're conmmitting a public order offence.

Never works.

I remember when Condoleeza Rice visited Liverpool, some dickhead started chucking bottles at a few of the people rallying in town during the day, so a few people called the police. I suppose they thought that considering that the entire town was absolutely crawling with filth and none of the protestors were actually doing anything illegal at the time, the police would rush to their aid. Nope.

In any case, if somebody would like to explain what a known member of a violent fascist organisation was doing there if not to kick off, I'd be very grateful.

 

[Cobbles]

Or alternatively "Cause, having some sense of context, they don't feel the need to conflate all forms of violence as if they're exactly identical"

So what's the difference between a couple of fascist goons beating up an anti fascist goon, versus a couple of anti fascist goons beating up a fascist goon - none.

It's all just gratuitous violence masquerading as politics - the politics of the kindergarten.

"In any case, if somebody would like to explain what a known member of a violent fascist organisation was doing there if not to kick off, I'd be very grateful."

Seeking publicity, obviously and it looks like he achieved his aim, with a bit of low level martyrdom thrown in as good measure.

 

[Pigeon]

Lovely. So if a Socialist Worker or ANLer is found to be protesting at a Nash gathering, that "cunt" is fair game as well?

(Avoiding any obvious smartarse sectarian quips...)

Fact is, we appear to have a situation where a known fascist, apparnently 6'4" turned up at an anti deportation rally displaying fash insignia. Even if he wasn't intent on causing a ruck, he clearly intended to intimidate the people participating in a an action to defend some of the most reviled and marginalised people in the UK.

It backfired on him. Boo-hoo.

Like it or not, history does show that you don't deal with these scum by waving lolloypops at them.

 

[TeeJay]

Any accounts of what he was in fact wearing and doing before he was attacked? If he was so obviously badged up and tryin to intimdate people (by himself?) why did so many bystanders not realise why he had been attacked?

 

[Pigeon]

Any accounts of what he was in fact wearing and doing before he was attacked?

Read the indymedia account: badges all over his MA1 and a full back-piece.

 

[In Bloom]

So what's the difference between a couple of fascist goons beating up an anti fascist goon, versus a couple of anti fascist goons beating up a fascist goon - none.

The clue is in the question.

 

[Cobbles]

Read the indymedia account: badges all over his MA1 and a full back-piece.

So if I turn up as an ASH gathering with "Rothmans" badges all over my jacket, they have an absolute right to beat me up?

 

[Pigeon]

So if I turn up as an ASH gathering with "Rothmans" badges all over my jacket, they have an absolute right to beat me up?

Turn it in mate.

Every post you contribute displays your ignorance of the phenomenon we're discussing. Fascists have no fear of using violence, in fact it's their principle tool.

 

[Tom A]

What you meant to say was: "Cause, being muppets, they haven't got the intelligence to realise that without the organs of state maintaining justice, it all just devolves to the level of whichever bunch of boot boys has got better baseball bats being "right".

I was merely highlighting why from an anarchist POV they would be unlikely to want to involve the police.

 

[TeeJay]

Read the indymedia account: badges all over his MA1 and a full back-piece.

I have read indymedia - there are contradictory accounts of what he looked like and was wearing.

 

[JonnyT]

I was around pretty much immediately and he didn't seem to be wearing any obviously fascist insignia. someone on the Indy thread said he turned his jacket inside out which is (marginally) possible as I'd left for a moment.

There was nothing about this guy which screamed NAZI at me, tho things did seem a little "off" most of the time. He looked like a regular metal/punk kinda guy who had been sitting alone and got the shit beat out of him.

none of this is to deny he IS a Nazi, specially given the pics and some people pointing him out later, but being unaware of that is a completely honest mistake. none of the people involved were knowingly helping a Nazi, because it wasn't for some until that info became clear.

while I have no problem with physical anti-fascism and see it as completely necessary in certain circumstances, the posing, macho, harder-than-thou attitude shown in the Indy posts did piss me off something chronic.

- Jonathan

 

[Cobbles]

Turn it in mate.

Every post you contribute displays your ignorance of the phenomenon we're discussing. Fascists have no fear of using violence, in fact it's their principle tool.

What phenomenon - mob rule?

Anti fascists , too seem only to be ruled by the principle that violence is right "wennever we finkso innit"?

 

[JonnyT]

Anti fascists , too seem only to be ruled by the principle that violence is right "wennever we finkso innit"?

Anti-fascists think violence is right....when they think it is right?

thanks for that

 

[TeeJay]

Anti fascists , too seem only to be ruled by the principle that violence is right "wennever we finkso innit"?

Anti-fascists think violence is right....when they think it is right?

thanks for that

Saying something is right "whenever we think so", is to say that the moral or ethical principle being used is simple a personal and arbitrary judgement instead of being based on any consistent or coherent principles. This isn't simply a tautology, it is a rejection of ethical thinking.

 

[pk]

Surely nobody gives a fuck about some smashed-face nazi?

 

[TeeJay]

Have you actually read the thread pk? Quite a few people have expressed concerns about what happened.

 

[fanciful]

But the odd thing is why?
Are people incapable of understanding the difference between people who want to gas black people, the disabled and communists in concentration camps and those who want to stop them?
In what sense is that a difficult distinction to make?

 

[TeeJay]

The guy who got battered was involved with the holocaust? Bit young isn't he?

How about you engage in a sensible debate, rather than drag in hysterical rubbish like that?

Do you believe in "thought-crime"? Do you believe in beating people up (or worse) on the basis of what they think, regardless of what they have actually done?

 

[Tom A]

Do you believe in "thought-crime"? Do you believe in beating people up (or worse) on the basis of what they think, regardless of what they have actually done?

I said something very similar a few pages ago. However it seems anything goes where anti-fasicsm is concerned.

 

[stevepinker]

Seems some anti-fascist are no better than football thugs

 

[Dissident Junk]

But the odd thing is why?
Are people incapable of understanding the difference between people who want to gas black people, the disabled and communists in concentration camps and those who want to stop them?
In what sense is that a difficult distinction to make?

Okay . . . a selection of statements:

This man wants to gas people in concentration camps (immoral thought).

Some people want to stop him (moral thought).

This man has not gassed anyone in a concentration camp (fact).

Those people have kicked the shit out of him (violent act).

Errr . . . . those people's 'moral thought' has led to a violent act; his 'immoral thought' hasn't. You're on pretty shaky ground.

 

[Tom A]

Okay . . . a selection of statements:

This man wants to gas people in concentration camps (immoral thought).

Also it's a bit of a dodgy assumption to make to decide that this man definately DOES want to gas blacks, Jews, etc, athough I doubt they could be arsed to ask him about his precise views. However some fascists (partcularly the more "moderate" BNP types) just want to send the blacks to "whence they came from", rather than extreminate them.

Oh, and yes, I am aware that initally the government of Nazi Germany only wanted to ship the Jews off to some places away from the Reich, Madagascar was one such proposed location. But then they discovered that this was impractical, so the "Final Solution" was born.

But still, people are being accused of crimes that have not yet committed (intention or no intention).