Just how much more can the rail passenger take, surely there is a limit to the ticket prices he or she will pay? We must now have some of the most expensive railway journeys in the world. Surely it is time for the railways to be put back into public ownership, it woule be popular and the right thing to do.
Arriva take over Cross-country rail:fares could rise 60%!
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
I don't see the point in this chopping and changing of who has each rail franchise. Surely the costs of changing all the trains, right down to silly things like repainting them all in the new company's colours and putting new signs up, isn't exactly helping keep ticket prices down? It all went from First to something called Northern Trains here a few years ago and prices went up (so did the number of trains, but that's no use if people can't afford to get on them!). It's had the effect of making more people drive round -- so what's their suggestion? A congestion charge covering everywhere inside the M60 
Let's improve public transport in meaningful ways rather than just changing its ownership every five minutes, then pay for it by charging city centre drivers.
Let's improve public transport in meaningful ways rather than just changing its ownership every five minutes, then pay for it by charging city centre drivers.
[pedant]It's the Cross Country route, not Crossrail, that's something else enitrely[/pedant]
Quite apart from the regulation of fares, the amount of time and money that is spent on the franchising process is incredible. And surely it stiffles long-term investment. I find it very hard to believe this is the best way of running a rail network.
Quite apart from the regulation of fares, the amount of time and money that is spent on the franchising process is incredible. And surely it stiffles long-term investment. I find it very hard to believe this is the best way of running a rail network.
ThunderCat
Fed and Not Dead
God- i cant live in this country for the expense of it all-
now i cant fucking leave it eiether?
So much money.
Can nobody cap this? Jesus.
now i cant fucking leave it eiether?
So much money.
Can nobody cap this? Jesus.
fear-n-loathing
drinking mouthwash
I use the railways about 4 or 5 times a year and they're fucking awful. I paid 60 quid to go to London from Chester, if the fare goes up any more I'd be better off driving!!
From treelover's link:
What that actually means is that we will now all be expected to fork out even more than we do already to pay for a fragmented and inherently inefficient means of running the railways, which gobbles up several times the subsidy BR used to need to pay for the duplication of functions, increased legal and contractual costs and the need for every company involved in an inherently unprofitable industry to make a 'profit' - at taxpayer's expense.
What that actually means is that we will now all be expected to fork out even more than we do already to pay for a fragmented and inherently inefficient means of running the railways, which gobbles up several times the subsidy BR used to need to pay for the duplication of functions, increased legal and contractual costs and the need for every company involved in an inherently unprofitable industry to make a 'profit' - at taxpayer's expense.
It's completely fucked up.
I think the franchising arrangement nails everything to medium-term thinking. The TOCS can't do anything truely long-term because they have no security beyond the current franchise. Meanwhile it is hard to make any reactive short-term changes where required because most changes would interfere with franchise conditions.
untethered
For industry & decency
editor said:
It's a nice little earner for the professional advisers, too.
The £250 an hour lawyers, bankers and accountants get a windfall every time a franchise changes hands.
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
What confuses me is how the UK governament seems to want you to stop using your cars and use public transport. Then the fares go up, and the reliability goes down.
I am here in UK on holiday at the moment, and the public transport is prohibitively expensive.
I am here in UK on holiday at the moment, and the public transport is prohibitively expensive.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Paid 95 quid for a return to Newcastle the other day. (With a "Saver" ticket )
We should all start riding the rails.
)We should all start riding the rails.
oneflewover
Following "The Tigers"
g force said:
None of the railway companies own the stock. The stock is all owned by the leasing companies which are all owned by banks.
The TOCs generally just own pieces of paper saying that they can run the service and take profits!
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I'm not inclined to defend the way our trains have been privatised, by any means.
But there seems to be a bit of an automatic negative reaction to all this going on here ... presumably there is a reason that Arriva have been chosen over Virgin? They must be offering something better? I might go and see if I can find a more detailed explanation of the decision.
Of course the Guardian article will highlight the "60% fare increases" as it makes a good headline and provides fodder for all the railway - bashers out there. I'm assuming that as this applies to the unregulated fares, this means it will be advance-purchase fares that will be affected and not the regular tickets and savers. Advance purchase fares that never existed (at that price level) before privatisation, by the way.
Also, if (and I've yet to see the full details) it does mean that they will be increasing stock on the XC routes then this is a good thing and if you ask me potentially a good trade-off for some rises in the very cheapest fares. Expensive fares may put people off rail travel but so do overcrowded trains, especially on long distance routes (and this franchise has plenty of those). I used to like the XC services before they brought in the dreaded Voyagers which are frequently overcrowded and don't have adequate luggage space for long journeys; now I mostly avoid them. If we're going to get some HSTs back then it's all good if you ask me.
Also: crazy as the system may be, it's only the fact that franchises can be and are lost like this that will keep operators on their toes. It's virtually the only element of competition in the system - the TOCs don't, on the whole, compete with each other and don't really even compete with other modes of transport in most cases.
But there seems to be a bit of an automatic negative reaction to all this going on here ... presumably there is a reason that Arriva have been chosen over Virgin? They must be offering something better? I might go and see if I can find a more detailed explanation of the decision.
Of course the Guardian article will highlight the "60% fare increases" as it makes a good headline and provides fodder for all the railway - bashers out there. I'm assuming that as this applies to the unregulated fares, this means it will be advance-purchase fares that will be affected and not the regular tickets and savers. Advance purchase fares that never existed (at that price level) before privatisation, by the way.
Also, if (and I've yet to see the full details) it does mean that they will be increasing stock on the XC routes then this is a good thing and if you ask me potentially a good trade-off for some rises in the very cheapest fares. Expensive fares may put people off rail travel but so do overcrowded trains, especially on long distance routes (and this franchise has plenty of those). I used to like the XC services before they brought in the dreaded Voyagers which are frequently overcrowded and don't have adequate luggage space for long journeys; now I mostly avoid them. If we're going to get some HSTs back then it's all good if you ask me.
Also: crazy as the system may be, it's only the fact that franchises can be and are lost like this that will keep operators on their toes. It's virtually the only element of competition in the system - the TOCs don't, on the whole, compete with each other and don't really even compete with other modes of transport in most cases.
I'm going to wait for more informed and in-depth comment than is available from the BBC or the Grauniad on why Arriva got the contract over Virgin before making a judgement on why they got it. I can't help suspecting, however, that part of the reason will be that their bid included more generous payments to government for the franchise. That's important to the Treasury atm, which is why over the last few years several operators have found themselves tied into contracts that mandate payments greater than they can afford. It's one of the main reasons why GNER has had to hand back the keys to its franchise.
I've no more faith in Arriva than Virgin, either. They might be promising extra seats and the like, but whether they'll deliver them (or, more to the point, whether they'll deliver them at a reasonable cost) is questionable. Don't expect a wholesale replacement of Voyagers either: there aren't nearly enough spare HST sets to cover for them, and in any case, brilliant though they are, the HSTs have a poorer reliability record than the Voyagers simply by virtue of being thirty years old. My prediction is that things will remain much as they are for the foreseeable future with the exception of fare hikes. I can't see Arriva wanting to put a lot of money into building new trains when a) they've got the Voyagers, which are only a few years old and b) the government-sponsored HST2 project is starting to come on stream. They'll sit on what they've got for now IMO.
In other words, I've no pretty much no faith in the franchising system to deliver improvements on Cross Country routes or any other.
I've no more faith in Arriva than Virgin, either. They might be promising extra seats and the like, but whether they'll deliver them (or, more to the point, whether they'll deliver them at a reasonable cost) is questionable. Don't expect a wholesale replacement of Voyagers either: there aren't nearly enough spare HST sets to cover for them, and in any case, brilliant though they are, the HSTs have a poorer reliability record than the Voyagers simply by virtue of being thirty years old. My prediction is that things will remain much as they are for the foreseeable future with the exception of fare hikes. I can't see Arriva wanting to put a lot of money into building new trains when a) they've got the Voyagers, which are only a few years old and b) the government-sponsored HST2 project is starting to come on stream. They'll sit on what they've got for now IMO.
In other words, I've no pretty much no faith in the franchising system to deliver improvements on Cross Country routes or any other.
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