Army risks losing its reputation, warns general

[FridgeMagnet]

I thought it was one of the jobs of the Army to indoctrinate recruits, make them into good soldier material and so on. So what this guy is saying is basically "Wayne Rooney has beaten us". Bloody whiner.

Anyway, if anything is going to make the Army lose its reputation it's its increasingly obvious role as a political and commercial tool. Not that it's never been that before or anything, but any idea that it's there to protect the nation gets undermined with each report of some new or old lie about Iraq.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I thought it was one of the jobs of the Army to indoctrinate recruits, make them into good soldier material and so on. So what this guy is saying is basically "Wayne Rooney has beaten us". Bloody whiner.

Anyway, if anything is going to make the Army lose its reputation it's its increasingly obvious role as a political and commercial tool. Not that it's never been that before or anything, but any idea that it's there to protect the nation gets undermined with each report of some new or old lie about Iraq.

You can't make someone into good soldier material, that's the problem here.

I think you're wrong on the cause of the army losing it's reputation, most people don't care about it's use as a political tool, they care about the pictures in the mail, mirror and sun as well as the almost continual accusations of bullying. While you and many others here may rail against the political nature of the army U75 is not a representative sample of the UK's politics or beliefs is it.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Someone being "soldier material" just means "they can be turned into a soldier". I can't think of a society where young men haven't idolised rich, violent and/or individualistic people; I can't see that this one is particularly different. This just sounds like some old duffer complaining about kids these days having no discipline. I bet I could find similar quotes going back millennia.

Yes, people are concerned about bullying and brutality, but that's not a factor outside the army, which was what I was getting at. To compare it to what this general is saying. And I don't just talk to people on Urban you know. Bunch of liberals.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Someone being "soldier material" just means "they can be turned into a soldier". I can't think of a society where young men haven't idolised rich, violent and/or individualistic people; I can't see that this one is particularly different. This just sounds like some old duffer complaining about kids these days having no discipline. I bet I could find similar quotes going back millennia.

When did your idols go out on drinking binges, get accused of gang raping women or are violent in public then score a goal and get worshiped as a star? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't but it's not a good thing is it. Fact is that the british culture is one of alcohol and violence with it, and this is exaberated by the level of fitness and trained agression that the army gives.

Yes, people are concerned about bullying and brutality, but that's not a factor outside the army, which was what I was getting at. To compare it to what this general is saying. And I don't just talk to people on Urban you know. Bunch of liberals.

The general is worried that the army will lose face/it's reputation. In that respect the bullying is very relevant. The politicising of the army isn't.

I'd be more interested in the rest of his speech, on how the army should deal with these recruits and turn them into more reliable soldiers. If he's going to raise the issue he'd best have an answer.

 

[laptop]

This sounds like arse covering and being the strategic souls they are I wonder what's been happening recently or is about to happen.

I suspect there's more news of prisoner abuse in Iraq on the way.

So they're going to blame Loaded or whatever's taken its niche now.

Not that there's anything in the slightest new in the quote in the OP. What's the quote from an Infantry officer about other ranks - something like "they're fucking animals, but at least they're our fucking animals"?

And if you were an Infantry officer, you'd be really rather worried if other ranks spent their evenings discussing Spinoza over a single glass of Chateuneuf du Pape...

 

[cemertyone]

Total complete and utter bollocks. There are always a few rotten eggs but to accuse the entire army of being like that is rubbish.

Oh dear oh dear....where back to the "few rotten eggs routine" beloved of such people such as toby. Apart from the fact that the "few rotten eggs" are actually not so few at all..

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is actually a problem, today's society doesn't encourage the self discipline or moral courage that the Army expects from its soldiers. Watching Bad Lads Army shows how hard it is for modern youths to knuckle down to discipline.

After all, the Army is only as good as the society it recruits from, although thankfully we do manage, somehow, to keep ourselves slightly seperated from the civillian world.

Is that why we've upped our quota of Commonwealth recruits for about the last five years running?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I suspect there's more news of prisoner abuse in Iraq on the way.

So they're going to blame Loaded or whatever's taken its niche now.

If you'd read the article you'd know this wasn't a press release, but an internal breifing/lecture/speech, which makes your comments rather unlikely. If it was a press release or meant for public disemination other papers than the telegraph would have picked up on it and i haven't seen any references to it elsewhere.

There will be more news of abuse of prisoners on the way, if given long enough. As it is i'm willing to put a £10 bet that there will be no new stories (or new revelations) about it in the next week, loser pays the server fund.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Oh dear oh dear....where back to the "few rotten eggs routine" beloved of such people such as toby. Apart from the fact that the "few rotten eggs" are actually not so few at all..

Something like 50,000 soldiers (ie not including RAF or RN personnel) have been to Iraq now, how many have been done for 'war crimes'? It is clearly a few rotten eggs.

Is that why we've upped our quota of Commonwealth recruits for about the last five years running?

Nope, that's because we can't get enough recruits in the UK. A decent recession will get the recruiting figures back up.

 

[cemertyone]

(a) I now feel stupider for having read that, well done.
(b) You can prove that squaddies are all 'rapist pricks' can you? Again, this appears to be something I've missed out on (and everyone else I know has missed out on) in all the time I've been in.
(c) The Army deals harshly with infractions of discipline, even more so if alcohol is involved. The Army certainly does not encourage squaddies to go down town and start fights anymore, because it makes the Army look bad to the public.
(d) What bullying? In all the time I've been in I've seen one incidence of what I'd class as bullying. Most of the 'bullying' stories you see in the rags are weak kids who don't have the spine to be in the Army.
(e) What Regiment/Ship was the fella who your bird went off with from?
QUOTE]

ANSWERS TO THE ABOVE:

(b) Well we could start with the case of the soldier who raped and murdered a young lady up north recently ( and then topped himself). Then move onto the three squadiess who raped and seriously injuried a young lady in Cyprus last year ( after a serious assult on her boyfriend). Then i could list at least 20 similar cases in the last five years....is that good enough for you solider boy.
(c) Go into ANY garrision town at the week-end and the evidence is right there infront of your face.. i would reccommend Cholchester as a staring place for you.
(d) If you believe that "bullying" is a consequence of "weak kids" then truely your head needs looked at!!! but your mentality and outlook is perhaps a better indication of how you end up after having been in the army, than any critic i could proffer..........jesus wept what a tosser...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck knows what the hell is happening down there, something very strange whatever it is. Hopefully they'll find whoever is resposible and they'll be punished.

Mmmm, don't reckon it will happen though.

My personal (admittedly incredibly prejudiced) theory is that one or more middle to high-rankers are involved. There's no way on earth squaddies or NCOs are behind this, the brass would've thrown them to the wolves ages ago.

 

[cemertyone]

Something like 50,000 soldiers (ie not including RAF or RN personnel) have been to Iraq now, how many have been done for 'war crimes'? It is clearly a few rotten eggs.
.

It wouldn`t have anything to do with the fact that the Army actually investigates itself would it i wonder???
That any allegations made have first to go through the very same company commander of the unit from which troops might have come from....
Please if your gonna post stuff defending the Army then stop being padantic with your figures.......

 

[laptop]

If you'd read the article you'd know this wasn't a press release, but an internal breifing/lecture/speech, which makes your comments rather unlikely.

I'm not saying it was definitely calculated arse-covering. I was responding to Dhimmi's wondering, as quoted.

Having now read the entire article, I'd say that it seems very, very likely to me the speech was made to be leaked. And that it's in the Sunday Telegraph - which so tries to be the house journal for middle-ranking officers - in August, so the other explanation for its appearance is that someone was on holiday.

The interesting bit is the preparing of the ground for the Army brass to put its hand up:

In a reference to abuse in Iraq, Gen Lamb said: "The officers and men under our command did not live up to the standard we expected of them. Those who failed were empowered when they should not have been, were left unsupervised when we probably knew they should not have, were allowed to embrace and populate a culture that was simply unworthy of us all."

The Sunday Telegraph reframing it as "yob culture" is the silly season bit.

I'd not be surprised if Lamb is bright and in touch enough to have chuckled to himself as he put in this wonderful anachronism just for the Telegraph reader:

we recruited from a society which has in the last 30 years become marginally more dysfunctional and increasingly self-interested and in places morally corrupt. And all the while being told we were out of step with 'Cool Britannia'.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nope, that's because we can't get enough recruits in the UK. A decent recession will get the recruiting figures back up.

I don't agree. I might have 20 or even 10 years ago, but everyday culture is so anti-military now (whereas 10 or 20 years ago it was only anti-police) that even a recession wouldn't boost the amount of British-born recruits to the kind of numbers needed.
I reckon we're going to see one or more of three things occurring:
either a lot more incentives being offered for squaddies to stay in (I believe the navy had success with offering an annual tax-free "bounty" to people who signed on for extra 3s and 5s).

The "privatisation" of some "policing" tasks along the lines of what the Yanks are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

An extension of territorial/reserve obligations.

Whichever way it goes, I think your belief that a recession will sort everything out is a bit naive.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not that there's anything in the slightest new in the quote in the OP. What's the quote from an Infantry officer about other ranks - something like "they're fucking animals, but at least they're our fucking animals"?

Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington, and the quote was more along the lines of "My troops are the scum of the earth, but they're my scum"

And if you were an Infantry officer, you'd be really rather worried if other ranks spent their evenings discussing Spinoza over a single glass of Chateuneuf du Pape...

I got introduced to anarchism while in the army. A mate lent me some Bakhunin pamphlets and away I went!
So not Spinoza and a glass of wine, but Bakhunin and a bottle of brown!

 

[tobyjug]

Whichever way it goes, I think your belief that a recession will sort everything out is a bit naive.

I have to agree, a few thousand extra young males claiming JSA does not mean any of them are suitable for the armed services.

 

[tobyjug]

Oh dear oh dear....where back to the "few rotten eggs routine" beloved of such people such as toby. Apart from the fact that the "few rotten eggs" are actually not so few at all..

If you are so bloody sure you must have a reason for thinking so. I suggest sharing your sources with the rest of us so we can judge for ourselves.

 

[bugsy7]

QUOTE]
(d) If you believe that "bullying" is a consequence of "weak kids" then truely your head needs looked at!!! but your mentality and outlook is perhaps a better indication of how you end up after having been in the army, than any critic i could proffer..........jesus wept what a tosser...

Of course there's bullying in the British Army. Just the same as there's bullying in office environments, factories and everywhere else.
One of the things you can't do in the army is build up a ficticious picture of yourself that you project to all your workmates. In the army, you live with others on a constant basis, so if you waddle in and tell your mates you've just been to the Brecons and beat all the SAS recruits on Sickener I, then you'll very quickly be found out and mercilessly ribbed about it. Nobody has any illusions about anybody else. Which is part of what makes up the fantastic camaraderie of the army. You're perceived as the person you actually are, and not the person you'd like everybody to think you are.
Apart from that, everybody's in the same boat and that leads to a much greater willingness to help each other. That alone sets it apart from civvie street.
Of course, you have to deal with the wanky ruperts and NCOs from time to time, but then again, as a civvy you have to deal with some fuckup of a boss. But in the army, there are a great many more means and opportunities of bringing these people down in a team effort.
It's a great life, you should try it.

MsG

 

[Bigdavalad]

b) Well we could start with the case of the soldier who raped and murdered a young lady up north recently ( and then topped himself). Then move onto the three squadiess who raped and seriously injuried a young lady in Cyprus last year ( after a serious assult on her boyfriend). Then i could list at least 20 similar cases in the last five years....is that good enough for you solider boy.
(c) Go into ANY garrision town at the week-end and the evidence is right there infront of your face.. i would reccommend Cholchester as a staring place for you.
(d) If you believe that "bullying" is a consequence of "weak kids" then truely your head needs looked at!!! but your mentality and outlook is perhaps a better indication of how you end up after having been in the army, than any critic i could proffer..........jesus wept what a tosser...

(b) So we'll go for 30 cases, involving 50ish people in the last five years (more than you actually claim, in case you forgot a couple). Out of a strength of roughly 100,000 that makes 0.05% of the Army rapists. The British Crime Survey of 2000 found that 61,000 women had been raped in the UK in 1999 (although only 7809 were reported)(Figures taken from here. So that gives us, say, 60,000 rapists in the general population of the UK that year alone (not even covering the five years we used for the Army figures). With roughly 20 million males between the ages of 16 and 64 in the UK (Source), that makes roughly 0.3% of the UK male population rapists - 6 times higher than the Army rate. All civvies are rapists!!!
(c) I don't deny that squaddies fight and drink a lot, however the Army deals with cases incasing alcohol very severely, especially if the accused is an NCO or an officer, because they are supposed to give an example. Even if they can't get them for assault, there's always the old standby of "Conduct Unbecoming of a Soldier" they can be charged for.
(d) I am not talking about 'proper bullying' I'm talking about the vast majority of what is reported as bullying in the red tops, which is just kids that can't hack Army discipline. In my time (almost eight years now), I've seen one case of what I would class as actual bullying (a SNCO using his rank to fuck other people over without reason in this case) and when it was reported to the Troop OC, it was dealt with. Being shouted at isn't bullying, being punished for fucking up isn't bullying (so long as the punishment fits the crime) and being told what to do is not bullying.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Mmmm, don't reckon it will happen though.

My personal (admittedly incredibly prejudiced) theory is that one or more middle to high-rankers are involved. There's no way on earth squaddies or NCOs are behind this, the brass would've thrown them to the wolves ages ago.

Maybe, like I said, I have absolutely no idea what the hell has been going on down there.

It wouldn`t have anything to do with the fact that the Army actually investigates itself would it i wonder???
That any allegations made have first to go through the very same company commander of the unit from which troops might have come from....
Please if your gonna post stuff defending the Army then stop being padantic with your figures.......

Maybe every case isn't reported - but do you think that widespread 'war crimes' could be covered up from the press, people like Amnesty, the UN, the people who would use it as propaganda against the coalition? I don't.

 

[Bigdavalad]

I don't agree. I might have 20 or even 10 years ago, but everyday culture is so anti-military now (whereas 10 or 20 years ago it was only anti-police) that even a recession wouldn't boost the amount of British-born recruits to the kind of numbers needed.
I reckon we're going to see one or more of three things occurring:
either a lot more incentives being offered for squaddies to stay in (I believe the navy had success with offering an annual tax-free "bounty" to people who signed on for extra 3s and 5s).

The "privatisation" of some "policing" tasks along the lines of what the Yanks are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

An extension of territorial/reserve obligations.

Whichever way it goes, I think your belief that a recession will sort everything out is a bit naive.

I don't think it will sort things out - as you say, there is a very anti-military feel in a lot of the country at the minute, not helped by the red tops reporting so many negative stories about the forces and ignoring the good things. I do think that a recession would push figures up a bit, for the simple fact that if you're unemployed and have no prospect of the job the lure of the Army, getting a regular wage, getting to travel and every other benefit that being a soldier gives can be enough to at least get you to the ACIO and reading a couple of leaflets. Once you're there and the recruiters can have a talk with you then there's a chance you'll think "fuck it, why not give it three years (doesn't seem all that much time to a 17/18 year old after all), get some money and free food/accomodation for three years, maybe get a trade and see where I go from there".

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Maj Gen Graeme Lamb branded many recruits as "cocky and arrogant and brought up on a diet of football brats and binge drinking. . . who are not educated in and able to recognise self-discipline".

Maj Gen G Lamb. lol

Toughen up the trianing then Maj. Or are you still suffering from recruitment problems, whilst still currently disbanding battalions & slashing the numbers of military personnel?

pfftt.

Caviar for all new recruits!

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm very surprised that no one seems to notice that the same sort of people seem to join the army now as those who join'd it two hundred years ago - the sort of people the duke of wellington called 'the scum of the earth'.

for many people the army is the employer of last resort, once pretty much everything else's been gone through. although there are sound soldiers, there are also many people in the army - and other armed forces - who join because they simply like fighting & can't get a job anywhere else.

certainly the experiences of people i've known at the hands of the army, and the well-publicised "excesses" of the army in the six counties mean that soldiers already have a well-deserved reputation, and one which i'd hope the army sought to lose.

however, if they wish to keep their current unenviable rep, they needn't do anything.

 

[likesfish]

the quote was there the scum of the earth buts its amazing what we can make of them.
the other one and a fav of all commanders I don't know what they do to the enemy but by god they frighten me .
served in cyprus lots of drinking and fighting but British civillians on holiday were actually worse . it comes to something when as a squaddie your going thats out of order.

 

[Sorry.]

I don't think it will sort things out - as you say, there is a very anti-military feel in a lot of the country at the minute, not helped by the red tops reporting so many negative stories about the forces and ignoring the good things.

I think you'll find that the anti-militarist feel of the country happened in spite of the red-tops not because of them; with their bollocky "support out troops" double spreads and lurid tales of B.2.0-esque courage under fire, "squaddie saves Iraqi kittens, then exhausts self through handing out sweeties to 552,104 Iraqi children" stories and other rubbish.

The flip side or stories about prisoner abuse and shooting people is the bare minimum they can get away with considering that we're occupying another country over a lot of lies and even more oil.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think it will sort things out - as you say, there is a very anti-military feel in a lot of the country at the minute, not helped by the red tops reporting so many negative stories about the forces and ignoring the good things. I do think that a recession would push figures up a bit, for the simple fact that if you're unemployed and have no prospect of the job the lure of the Army, getting a regular wage, getting to travel and every other benefit that being a soldier gives can be enough to at least get you to the ACIO and reading a couple of leaflets. Once you're there and the recruiters can have a talk with you then there's a chance you'll think "fuck it, why not give it three years (doesn't seem all that much time to a 17/18 year old after all), get some money and free food/accomodation for three years, maybe get a trade and see where I go from there".

when i was 17/18 three years seemed an eternity.

the tabloid response to the iraq war was generally very supportive, the main exception being the mirror (and independent, if you count that as a tabloid). yeh, they weren't quite as supportive as in the falklands and in the first gulf adventure, but as a whole they have been unduly supportive.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

when i was 17/18 three years seemed an eternity.

the tabloid response to the iraq war was generally very supportive, the main exception being the mirror (and independent, if you count that as a tabloid). yeh, they weren't quite as supportive as in the falklands and in the first gulf adventure, but as a whole they have been unduly supportive.

Not really true at the moment though or on average over a longer period, if you look through the scum's back catalouge (without your eyes burning out) you'll find a lot of anti army publicity, a hell of a lot more than the pro army stuff.

I am interested by your comment : the same sort of people seem to join the army now as those who join'd it two hundred years ago - the sort of people the duke of wellington called 'the scum of the earth

How many soldiers do you know? As oposed to the ones you've met in the pub or in the street, i'm interested in the number you know well or reasonably well.

 

[Dhimmi]

I suspect there's more news of prisoner abuse in Iraq on the way.
Not that there's anything in the slightest new in the quote in the OP. What's the quote from an Infantry officer about other ranks - something like "they're fucking animals, but at least they're our fucking animals"?

Well the new bit is stating it publically isn't it? Makes me think there might be the whiff of mutiny in the air...

 

[Bob_the_lost]

*bump*

I'm still intrigued by PM's army mates...

 

[ViolentPanda]

i'm very surprised that no one seems to notice that the same sort of people seem to join the army now as those who join'd it two hundred years ago - the sort of people the duke of wellington called 'the scum of the earth'.

IMHO it's not that it isn't noticed, it's that the phenomenon is so widely dispersed into "folk knowledge"/the collective unconscious that it has become unremarkable. The only real difference is that the army is no longer an "escape route" from a criminal conviction, as it was then.