Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
mashedmaryland said:
Fair point but I figured it better to keep to the related discussion then dove tail into an anti police thread in general...
Armed officers to patrol London gun crime hotspots
- Thread starter Kid_Eternity
- Start date
Fair point but I figured it better to keep to the related discussion then dove tail into an anti police thread in general...
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
mashedmaryland said:
Oh come on... this is just anti-police bollocks
Many murderers, rapists, paedophiles and burglars in the Met are there?
I wouldn't try and paint them whiter than white by any means but let's have a bit of realism...
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Monkeynuts said:
Please, this isn't a thread about geography, if you want to argue over the finer points of what tube represents what area take it elsewhere ffs.
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
Kid_Eternity said:
It's alright, we're finished.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
make a bet on it... for the good of the server fund if you want...??detective-boy said:Hopefully we'll have to wait a little longer than we had to wait for the inevitable load of bollocks like that ..
are you that sure of you boys?
im that sure they will...
thing is DB your boys are know for it indeed the attitude particularlly undermined by the continued hassling of any black males by police over the slightest thing i'm betting it'll go summit like this...
police attempt to stop and search black male aged 20 to 30 police fail to apprehend black male becuase he has outstanding parking ticket a spliff's worth of weed some other insignificant thing and he runs police call back up sayign subject was resisting arrest police chase after youth and (and it could go one of two ways here) gun down said black youth or gun gun another black youth how is wearing simlar clothes and has no reason to unerstand why or comply when he's told to get on the ground.
a thread will then appear here half of urban blame the original youth half blame the police you enter stage right spouting off about it's his parents fault and the police aren't fuckign mind readers and we should all get used to this type of thing in these present troublled times and then start swearing at people dimissing them out of turn callign them twats and then sayign that the police couldn't have know any better... all of which will still equal one more death at the hands of the police...
still you are so sure of your boys how much towards the server fund???
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
Monkeynuts said:
yup... well i can't be sure of the burglars...
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
GarfieldLeChat said:
No doubt there are a few, but a somewhat lesser proportion than in the wider population I would think...
Yes.Kid_Eternity said:
Do you know how many thousands of armed operations take place every year without a shot being fired, let alone anyone being injured, let alone anyone being killed, let alone that person being "innocent"?
As long as anyone carries and uses a gun or other leathal weapon there will be a need for some armed police.
As long as there armed police there will be incidents in which shots are fired.
As long as there are shots fired in some incidents, a very small proportion will turn out to involve "innocent" people.
That, I am afraid, is the nature of things. ALL that can be done is every attempt be made to keep those numbers as low as possible - which it is. But there will still be some.
If you have an idea which will stop those mistakes happening, please let us know because the rest of the world has been trying to work it out for hundreds of years.
Find me ONE such thread where I've said that. If you can't then fucking withdraw the allegation.GarfieldLeChat said:
Maybe. Because the police can ONLY act on what they know / believe at the time. And twats like you DO require them to be mind readers, which is impossible, so every fucking time you gob off about it, I'll call you a cunt.
As I have already posted, as long as people carry and use weapons the police will have to carry guns and, as long as they do, there will be mistakes made. That IS life. If YOU have a better idea, then lets have it.
And no, I'm not having a stupid bet with you ... because, if you actually read what I posted, you would see that I didn't say it WOULDN'T happen, I said we would hopefully have to wait longer than we did for your drivel (which, it would seem, we have already ... )
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
detective-boy said:Yeah, that's right. Take one of the few instances where something goes wrong instead of the fucking thousands where it doesn't.
No-one wants anything like that happening, but seeing as there are obviously several real guns on the streets of South London in the possession of people willing to use them, exactly what do you fucking propose? If people have guns the only armed police officers can be expected to deal with them. Otherwise all you end up with is dead members of the public and dead police officers and murderers wandering around shooting people at will with absolutely no way of stopping them.
Instead of just criticising, what the fuck IS your suggestion? Wave a fucking magic wand?
First I'll suggest you get off your high horse.
Then I'll suggest that you get a thicker skin.
Then I might possibly suggest that the government legislate to make the policing of entry ports much more efficient.
Oh, and making the assumption (implicit in your final sentence) that anyone with a gun will use it makes for trigger-happy policemen, and for all your injured catterwauling, Harry Stanley is still dead.
Now fuck off and take your blood-pressure medication, you splenetic old tart.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Monkeynuts said:
I don't know about the rest, but I knew a few thieves and a fair amount of perjurers in the Met.
Well, that's solved how to deal with armed criminals then ... lots of fucking good ideas there ... must ring round CO19 this very evening ...ViolentPanda said:
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
ViolentPanda said:
Worst criminals of all in the poor areas are they?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Would they have to be the 'worst of all' for that to be a problem?Monkeynuts said:
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
Bernie Gunther said:
No, we are entitled to expect the highest standards but I refer you to exhibit A:
some numpty said:
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Some (admittedly tired and emotional) views:
i) Armed police are already patrolling the streets (or rather they are already driving up and down the streets) and have been for some time. This is not a new phenomena;
ii) If the history of firearms legislation in this country (ie: its usually event-driven) is anything to go by we are probably one major firearms incident (ie: another hungerford / dunblane / braybrook street) from having an awful lot more armed police, if not an all-armed force;
iii) as DB says, when we have incidents like these, and armed robberies over scooters, shootouts at nightclubs, and people being shot over idiotic disputes, then we are going to have armed police around - especially in areas like lambeth and peckham where the intelligence suggests the events are more likely to take place;
iv) further banning of the remaining legal types of firearm, or replicas, will almost certainly have zero effect on the firearms rate - previous legislation has had no effect, because those who use firearms in criminality are almost always holding them illegally anyway. With regards to replicas, the law (which is that possession of a replica in the street, or during the commission of an offence, is an offence) is about as sensible as it could ever be, further legislation with regard to banning is not needed (which is not to say that harsher sentencing isnt).
i) Armed police are already patrolling the streets (or rather they are already driving up and down the streets) and have been for some time. This is not a new phenomena;
ii) If the history of firearms legislation in this country (ie: its usually event-driven) is anything to go by we are probably one major firearms incident (ie: another hungerford / dunblane / braybrook street) from having an awful lot more armed police, if not an all-armed force;
iii) as DB says, when we have incidents like these, and armed robberies over scooters, shootouts at nightclubs, and people being shot over idiotic disputes, then we are going to have armed police around - especially in areas like lambeth and peckham where the intelligence suggests the events are more likely to take place;
iv) further banning of the remaining legal types of firearm, or replicas, will almost certainly have zero effect on the firearms rate - previous legislation has had no effect, because those who use firearms in criminality are almost always holding them illegally anyway. With regards to replicas, the law (which is that possession of a replica in the street, or during the commission of an offence, is an offence) is about as sensible as it could ever be, further legislation with regard to banning is not needed (which is not to say that harsher sentencing isnt).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
detective-boy said:Well, that's solved how to deal with armed criminals then ... lots of fucking good ideas there ... must ring round CO19 this very evening ...
Go roll your eyes at someone who cares, muppet.
Close down the supply of guns and you close down the number of people able to use them. Simple mathematics that even you should be able to follow.
In which case it's a pity that the "policing" of entry ports by HMRC is little better than a joke.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
spetacularlly missing the point as ever thank fuck you are retired...detective-boy said:
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Monkeynuts said:
No, and you may have noticed that I didn't claim they were.
The fact is that some POLICE OFFICERS (you know, those guys who are tasked with upholding and enforcing law?) ehgage in criminals acts. Hedging around that reality with arguments about "worst criminals" doesn't alter that fact.
Oh, and in terms of "worst criminals", who actually is "worst"; the person who is open about their criminality, or the person who is paid to uphold the law and yet feels at liberty to transgress the law?
You had a point. Fucking hell, must be a first ... looked like some knee-jerk "anti-plod drivel" to me.GarfieldLeChat said:
You been down the SE London mortuaries to count the bodies of "black youths" "gunned down" for being dressed similarly to another "black youth" running away after being challenged about "an outstanding parking ticket" or a "spliffs worth of weed" yet ...
All of this is fascinating, and probably true. As was what you put in your last post ...ViolentPanda said:
... but HOW exactly does any of it address my guestion to you, arising from your (entirely predictable): "Or is taking home a freshly mended table leg." comment to my post which acknoweldged that there would be mistakes made.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
detective-boy said:
And your posts could easily be dismissed as 'pro plod drivel'...all you've done is wade in throwing around insults and high minded 'insights'. Not much help really...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
detective-boy said:
That was a question?
Odd then that it had all the substance of one of your regular "anti-anyone who questions police motives or intentions" tirades then, isn't it?
But, to answer your "question", I'll re-state the same point I've made many times on such matters; that the police need better and longer weapons training, so that their pulling of a trigger isn't a mere reaction, but a reasoned response.
The only way to get that is from regular live fire exercises, rather than mostly concentrating on range-work and simulations, you do need to actually come under fire.
I try to imagine Met firearms officers having to operate under the "permission to fire" rules of engagement (no magazine loaded, no round in the chamber, permission to fire must be requested from senior duty officer at HQ) that were extant in Ulster in the 1980s, and I can't see your former comrades hacking it, but that's the kind of mindset, imho, that they need to develop; that they may well come under fire, but that pulling the trigger on their own weapon musn't be their first response.
Er ... that is exactly what GarfieldLeChat called them ... which is why I posted that response ...Kid_Eternity said:
Do try and keep up ...
And actually reading my posts over a period of time might assist you in deciding what best to call them.
You can always have ever more and better training. But would the public pay for it? The cost of training the (relatively few) firearms officers we have is already massive - the sort of training you are describing would ratchet it up by orders of magnitude. And it would NOT guarantee there would not be any further problems.ViolentPanda said:
You have an entirely inaccurate view of how armed police officers react. If they shot first and asked questions later don't you think the statsitics for numbers of armed operations to number of shots fired would look very different?
You are also mistaken in thinking that army style "rules of engagement" could actually operate in a policing environment. When armed response vehicles were first introduced they effectively had to ask for "permission to fire". It didn't work and people (public and police) were regularly put at risk, and so they were changed.
I think you need to think through the difference between army and police situations and the expectations of the officers in the two situations. It frequently ISN'T them that is "under fire", it is some third party.
detective-boy said:Er ... that is exactly what GarfieldLeChat called them ... which is why I posted that response ...
Do try and keep up ...
And actually reading my posts over a period of time might assist you in deciding what best to call them.
to be fair, you do tend to make out like you are the only possible authority on all things police/law and order related.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Pete the Greek said:
Exactly and further to this it becomes harder to discuss this stuff with the pig ignorance of the ex copper mouthing off. I'm going to ignore the idiot now because I can't be arsed to engage with his backward policeman's monothought.
Nixon
peanut butter n.w.o.
Addmitedly I haven't seen any armed officers as yet,but my girlfriend and I have noticed the strong police precence about in SE london after that Clapham shooting.Seen loads more than usual on car patrols and on foot.I hope these innocent kids and young people stop getting murdered by gun toting youts..it really makes me 
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