Argentina look pretty good
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JTG said:
Bolded for the hard of thinking.
If you are English/part English/whatever, I don't care if you don't support England, it is entirely your decision, I have no issue with that and I do not judge you for it. I am merely saying that it can't be a conscious decision, it is based on how you feel, you just know whether you want to support them or not.
Your implication that I'm some kind of closet racist applying a football version of Norman Tebbit's cricket test says to me that you're just as much of a judgmental bigot when it comes to issues of nationality as the little Englanders you say you despise.
I support England because I feel an attachment to the country and the attitudes of some of my fellow countrymen don't put me off because I am mature and open minded enough to realise that they are only part of the bigger picture. I'm sure the various Somalis I'm seeing flying the cross of St George in my neighbourhood would agree as well.
JTG said:
You're sure they would are you? Are you talking about second-generation Somalis who have grown up and gone to school in this country? Or are you talking recently arrived immigrants making an effort to integrate? My mum loves the Queen and was proud to come here from Italy in the early-60s. But being born here and growing up here gives me a different perspective.
I'm not saying you're a racist but you certainly assume alot about what consitutes supporting a country and you certainly show little appreciation for the identity dilemmas of second-generation immigrants.
There's no bigotry in what I say, just bitter experience in school, the workplace and in general about this issue of national identity. Things like the world cup just bring it out more.
Anyway as I said when the game starts I'll support England and Italy and if they play each other I'll see where my heart takes me. I've screamed with utter passion when both teams have played and suffered double when both teams have gones out on penalties.
I'm saying the issue is a complex one and you shouldn't make pronouncements on something you have not experienced.
as I say, you know nothing of my opinions on these things because I have said nothing about them. I am saying that supporting a football team is down to feeling more than anything else, it isn't a calculated thing you either do or you don't. This is as much true of club football as it is international sides.
The Somalis I'm thinking of round here have been in Britain for 15 years or so, many of them late teens/early twenties.
You're projecting opinions and attitudes onto me which I simply don't hold because you are utterly failing to comprehend my argument. afaic, I'm not having a discussion about dual identity or multiculturalism, I'm talking about whether or not someone wants a football team to win matches and that while the factors involved in this may be many but ultimately it is not going to be a conscious choice, it is a gut feeling which you have.
Please stop trying to imply that I don't understand identity dilemmas for second generation immigrants, it's utterly patronising and says more about what you WANT to believe rather than the idea I am actually trying to convey.
The Somalis I'm thinking of round here have been in Britain for 15 years or so, many of them late teens/early twenties.
You're projecting opinions and attitudes onto me which I simply don't hold because you are utterly failing to comprehend my argument. afaic, I'm not having a discussion about dual identity or multiculturalism, I'm talking about whether or not someone wants a football team to win matches and that while the factors involved in this may be many but ultimately it is not going to be a conscious choice, it is a gut feeling which you have.
Please stop trying to imply that I don't understand identity dilemmas for second generation immigrants, it's utterly patronising and says more about what you WANT to believe rather than the idea I am actually trying to convey.
JTG said:
You contradict yourself in the space of a sentence (I have said nothing about them...I am saying). Who are you to say what supporting a football team is or is not? All you can say is that that is what it means to you.
But I was having that discussion and you decided that my feelings about supporting a national team were somehow wrong, or not feelings at all.
Well I've now been called pompous, patronising and been told that my reasons for supporting or not supporting a national team are somehow not valid because you deem them not to be.
Another classic Urban discussion. Cheers.
sorry but given your complete inability to comprehend my argument I really don't see the point in continuing.
Example - I don't contradict myself at all, you're talking about national identity, I'm talking about supporting football teams. I make this point and you say I'm contradicting myself? I'm not, I'm pointing out that we appear to be arguing about different subjects.
You decide to support a team, club or national side, because your instinct tells you that you want them to win. Now, the reasons behind your instinct telling you this are where your points about dual identity, pluralism, whatever come in - but I am not going that deep, I'm merely saying you know whether you want them to win or not.
You think you've got problems, I keep getting accused of racism and associated crimes in recent days. Not that it bothers me much, the people that know me here know that I'm not and the ones implying it have just seemed overly keen to identify me with a stereotype they want to hold onto for dear life.
Good day to you sir
Example - I don't contradict myself at all, you're talking about national identity, I'm talking about supporting football teams. I make this point and you say I'm contradicting myself? I'm not, I'm pointing out that we appear to be arguing about different subjects.
You decide to support a team, club or national side, because your instinct tells you that you want them to win. Now, the reasons behind your instinct telling you this are where your points about dual identity, pluralism, whatever come in - but I am not going that deep, I'm merely saying you know whether you want them to win or not.
You think you've got problems, I keep getting accused of racism and associated crimes in recent days. Not that it bothers me much, the people that know me here know that I'm not and the ones implying it have just seemed overly keen to identify me with a stereotype they want to hold onto for dear life.
Good day to you sir
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
jammer said:
Yeah they obviously wanted to lose against one of their biggest rivals then.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
squeegee said:Only ridiculous to someone who's not the son of an immigrant. Truth is the passion has always been there for Italy, and I always felt glad when England got knocked out in the past.
But with each tournament I have moved a little closer to the land of my birth. With each tournament I say this is the one where I will support England and then the little-Englanders make up my mind for me.
I'm sure many Anglo-Pakistanis/Indians/Sri Lankans/Caribbeans understand this dilemma with regards to cricket. It's a pity but not surprising you can't understand that.
I see myself as a Londoner rather than an Englishman. I have no interest in the Royal Family, the St George's Flag, Winston Churchill or jingoistic notions of superiority.
I will continue to watch England and wish them well. But I'll be out tonight also supporting Italy.
All I'm saying is it's alot more confusing than when I was 15 in 1982 and believed even in the first round when Italy played badly, that they would win it. There was no doubt then who was my team and we partied long and hard that night in London town us Anglo-Italians.
Now things are just a little bit different as I'm older and don't even believe in notions of national identity any more. And I pity those who do, particularly flag-waving morons of any country.
In the words of Bill Hicks "It's a round world the last time I looked"
Oh here we go, another patronising cunt, particularly this gem
'It's a pity but not surprising you can't understand that'.
Just that presumption of yours that you think you know what my background is. Now I 'should' have some time for Ireland due to my family but the truth is, I really couldn't give a monkeys. No dilemma here.
I know English people with Italian, Spanish, Greek, Turkish, Portuguese and Russian parents that will support England and the country of their parents origins with equal passion - doesn't seem to be any dilemma there either other than when they play.
And this made me laugh.
'
Now things are just a little bit different as I'm older and don't even believe in notions of national identity any more. And I pity those who do, particularly flag-waving morons of any country.'
So you decide to watch a football tournament where the whole idea is for nations to beat other nations and where the majority of people from those nations will support them? What are you, a masochist? And people that get behind their nations with flags are morons? Wow, I hope you're not one of these people that calls England fans arrogant. We've had enough hypocrites around here lately.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
squeegee said:
You don't see football played much in the Commonwealth do you eh. The reason why govts in other places such as Italy in the 30s went heavy on the nationalism was because the game was popular with the working class already.
FFS
Fact is, everyone has their own issues, experiences and reasons for acting as they do. Being the child of an italian immigrant gives you no more insight into the local Somali, Jamaican or Irish immigrant communities in Bristol than I have.
I've seen enough black and asian people in Bristol sporting England shirts, caps and flags to tell me that not all second or third generation immigrants feel the way you do. One lad at work is second generation Portuguese and who's he supporting? England, with no reservations.
Things aren't black and white and you cannot project your own experiences and attitudes onto other people no matter how much you think you have in common with them.
*posted as the child of a second generation immigrant by the way*
I've seen enough black and asian people in Bristol sporting England shirts, caps and flags to tell me that not all second or third generation immigrants feel the way you do. One lad at work is second generation Portuguese and who's he supporting? England, with no reservations.
Things aren't black and white and you cannot project your own experiences and attitudes onto other people no matter how much you think you have in common with them.
*posted as the child of a second generation immigrant by the way*
God you've all been busy. I've been at an Italian bar watching Italy do their usual making a drama out of a crisis act. Ghanaians there, English plenty of Italians, North Africans, a few Americans. Great atmosphere and yes I wanted Italy to win. And yes I felt that. And whether you want to look at it deeply or not I recognise that watching football and national identity are different things, but since sport has been used by governments in the past to inspire/pacify their nation and since I am aware of that I get suspicious when I see it used by governments who are going through crises of confidence. Gordon Brown supporting England? I personally love watching brilliant football. It's as much about physical skill as mental power. And when a team play as one, as Argentina did yesterday it's like the greatest poem and the resolution of victory and defeat become associated with the national psyche. When Italy won the world cup in 1982 it was a great day to be 15 and mad about football, as it must have been to have been an England fan in '66 and 15 or any young impressionable age.
Anyway, bottom line is I agree that feelings of national identity are an individual matter and can be different from person to person. So after the wry acceptance of the inevitable result tonight I go on associating my identity with a team and a country always on the verge of crisis. And that goes for watching England too. Different emotions, just as intense. Will be watching the Sweden game at a festival on a big screen, so maybe there I might finally find a resolution to this sporting drama.
Yeah whatever.
Did I say Argentina were good? Did I say Maradona is like a living God come back from the dead to me? He sticks his fingers up to authority and tells death to fuck off. And did I say the Argentinian team were good?
That's how football should be played. Meanwhile someone said something about a war somewhere. There's probably a discussion about it on one of the other threads in the politics section.
Oh look let's sort it all out through football. And Nike and Coca-Cola, oh and Budweiser, let's not forget Budweiser, can't exist without Neo-Colonialist piss water. Corporate takeover
But it's a great game 11 v 11 jumpers for goal posts '66 '82 and all that.
Braaaaaaaazzzzzzziiiiiiiiiillllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya later alligaters
Anyway, bottom line is I agree that feelings of national identity are an individual matter and can be different from person to person. So after the wry acceptance of the inevitable result tonight I go on associating my identity with a team and a country always on the verge of crisis. And that goes for watching England too. Different emotions, just as intense. Will be watching the Sweden game at a festival on a big screen, so maybe there I might finally find a resolution to this sporting drama.
Yeah whatever.
Did I say Argentina were good? Did I say Maradona is like a living God come back from the dead to me? He sticks his fingers up to authority and tells death to fuck off. And did I say the Argentinian team were good?
That's how football should be played. Meanwhile someone said something about a war somewhere. There's probably a discussion about it on one of the other threads in the politics section.
Oh look let's sort it all out through football. And Nike and Coca-Cola, oh and Budweiser, let's not forget Budweiser, can't exist without Neo-Colonialist piss water. Corporate takeover
But it's a great game 11 v 11 jumpers for goal posts '66 '82 and all that.
Braaaaaaaazzzzzzziiiiiiiiiillllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya later alligaters
This is true; the other day during a game on 5 Live Johnathon Pearce remarked that he had to take the label off a mineral water bottle he bought outside the stadium to get it in because it wasn't "an official FIFA water partner" or something. Belies belief.
Edited to add: Oh yeah, straight afterwards he then said it was Highland Spring to rebel.
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