Are you entitled to see photos a traffic warden has taken of your car?

[berniedicters]

Nothing has changed - We may face a fine of anything up to £5000 for being frivilous with or attempting to mislead a tribunal but there is still no penalty whatsoever for any council/contractor doing the same.

Really

Gah, I don't know how people have the gall to pass legislation that allows this kind of asymmetry. Clearly they do - and we fucking let them!

That in itself is a valid reason to highlight to an adjudicator, Council's have to demonstrate that they gave proper consideration to any challenge. If they have just fobbed you off, get copies of those letters in.

That is very interesting. Should the problem arise, I'll remember that.

 

[cybertect]

And they've changed the rules now, so you can claim some expenses for your appeal, as I understand it.

I didn't think they've changed anything lately.

http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/site/scripts/faqs_index.php?faqID=22#a22

Q: If I win, am I able to claim costs?

Answer:
The grounds on which costs may be awarded are few and such instances are rare. You may apply for and be awarded costs if an Adjudicator considers that the council has been "frivolous, vexatious or wholly unreasonable" in its conduct of the matter.

If awarded, costs relate only to reasonable expenses incurred in preparing the appeal. There is no element of compensation for inconvenience or distress, or to punish the council.

 

[bigbry]

If you've received a ticket you'll usually get a copy of the supporting photographic evidence if you appeal it. At least you do in Westminster, don't know about down there. I don't think they're under any obligation to send you photos 'just because they have them'.

Why?

To quote Nick Freeman (the lawyer who defends delebrities caught speeding) they have to prvide photos if they have them so that you can defend yourself against the allegation. That's your right (to be able to defend yourself) under the Human Rights Legislation.

If it's the principle in speeding cases I can't see it's any different in parking - you still need to be able to defend yourself.

 

[derf]

With all this privacy shit are they allowed to take a photo of your car?

 

[_float_]

Traffic wardens are great. In all my years of driving I have never had cause to park illegally, probably because I can be arsed to find a way not to. I love seeing lazy inconsiderate motorists being slapped with fine.

My last two contacts with traffic wardens:

1. Had my wing mirror knocked off by a bus driving too close to me, pulled over in a safe spot and walked 20 meters to where the coach driver had parked to exchange insurance details. Traffic warden tries to give me a parking ticket and doesn't even bother looking over to where I am pointing to the coach, or listen to a local resident at their window who has watched the whole thing happen. He only backed off after everyone went verbally ballistic on him and he walked away muttering about calling the police.

2. Picking something up - after driving around for about 30 minutes to find a parking slot I finally get one, get out and try to use my card to pay at the parking meter, but it isn't taking cards. I leave a note in my windscreen and go to the nearest shop to get enough pound coins, but there is a long queue. On return parking warden claims I have been away 10 minutes and is in the middle of writing ticket. I only *just* avoid a £60 fine after pleading with him and again getting a witness who arrived at the same time as me but did have change to confirm I arrived when I said I did (ie about 5 minutes max.)

I have also had various £60 fines while stopped briefly to deliver something heavy (legal) but where they said I needed various official company invoices and other paperwork to prove it (these were cash sales and I was self employed), or where I had paid for hours of parking but missed getting a new ticket by a minute or so. Another time I got back very late and tired, used a pre-paid single-use residents permit, scratched off the correct year, month, date but got the day of the week wrong, to wake up the next morning with a clamp, a £120 fine (due to the estate being policed by a private contractor) and just about to be towed away.

On some of these occasions I have been told by local people that there is a 'con' going on where some minicab drivers phone the wardens, they don't observe the minumum required period and order in a tow-truck which is already waiting around the corner. For this there are far higher fines and release fees, and the people involved split the extra profits.

This might be managable to someone on a proper income or if you can pass the costs on somehow but if you are just scraping by on benefits and/or barely self-employed this can really fuck you up money wise.

I did learn my lessons and now act ultra-cautiously but even if you follow the rules exactly there are some twats out there who still try it on.

 

[madamv]

The man-shape got a ticket from Southward Parking Shop recently. He wasnt in London, can prove such and wrote to them to say so. They wrote back saying tough, then I phoned our Polis who agreed it was either a cloned number plate or the ticket issuer wrote the numbers down wrong for the PCN. The nice policeman suggested I get a copy of the photographic evidence, which I wrote off for. Yesterday we got a letter saying the appeal was rejected and enclosed a Traffic Management Act appeals form.

I called Southwark and the lad on the phone couldnt access the photos but did confirm the vehicle type, which is not the same as ours.. The Policeman says we will have to go through the official appeals form, but what a fucking load of pants because with one call to DVLA they could establish it wasnt our vehicle. FFS!!!!

 

[_float_]

Southwark are crooks - in particular they run a scam in the roads around London Bridge.

 

[madamv]

But who would benefit from that? The ticket issuer doesnt receive the quids??? Do they get paid per PCN?

 

[_float_]

Well the scam as described to me has more to do with collusion and rule-breaking re. clamping/towing/impounding stuff, which is contracted out, but once you have corrupt shit going on, powers that can't be contested and shite management people tend to find every angle they can to screw money out of the situation at all levels...

 

[pogofish]

With all this privacy shit are they allowed to take a photo of your car?

Outdoors in a public place, you can photograph more or less anything you like. Privacy is not a concern there.

 

[pogofish]

I called Southwark and the lad on the phone couldnt access the photos but did confirm the vehicle type, which is not the same as ours.. The Policeman says we will have to go through the official appeals form, but what a fucking load of pants because with one call to DVLA they could establish it wasnt our vehicle. FFS!!!!

Is there an option to go to court on that one? If so I'd take it. If not, get it to the adjudicator ASAP.

 

[weltweit]

Why would you want to see the photos?

Hey thats great, you got my cars best side there

 

[berniedicters]

The man-shape got a ticket from Southward Parking Shop recently. He wasnt in London, can prove such and wrote to them to say so. They wrote back saying tough, then I phoned our Polis who agreed it was either a cloned number plate or the ticket issuer wrote the numbers down wrong for the PCN. The nice policeman suggested I get a copy of the photographic evidence, which I wrote off for. Yesterday we got a letter saying the appeal was rejected and enclosed a Traffic Management Act appeals form.

I called Southwark and the lad on the phone couldnt access the photos but did confirm the vehicle type, which is not the same as ours.. The Policeman says we will have to go through the official appeals form, but what a fucking load of pants because with one call to DVLA they could establish it wasnt our vehicle. FFS!!!!

Look at it this way - the appeals process is straightforward, and they are an independent organisation who have seen it all before. See this as an opportunity to stick it to the Man - it is obvious from what you've told us that you are going to prevail at appeal, and it might well be worth making that words like "frivolous", "vexatious" and (my favourite) "in bad faith" (or at least "not in good faith") are used in your appeal. Go for everything you can get out of them.

Then come back and tell us all about it.

Is there an option to go to court on that one? If so I'd take it. If not, get it to the adjudicator ASAP.

It's a process, pogofish - you just go through the steps, one by one, and it all happens. The council have to send you the parking appeals tribunal form with their final rejection of your appeal to them, and then it all happens separately. Just so long as you fill in the forms properly, it all works very nicely - and they are, effectively, on your side. At the very least they are going to give you a fair hearing.

 

[pogofish]

Depending on the exact regs applied, you may be able to circumvent the process by simply ticking the box on the ticket to ask for a court hearing instead.

Where very often the councils fail to show, or don't submit evidence. Although in this posters case, I would like to see them try!

Also, if that option is not present, it may be that the original ticket & subsequent correspondance is legally incompetent. A surprising number of councils are in fact guilty of this, particularly where a person's right to challenge & represent themselves is concerned.

In that case, they need not worry as it would not be enforcable at any stage of the procedure.

If they want to scan-up the paperwork & remove personal details, an opinion cuuld be sought.

 

[pogofish]

If it's the principle in speeding cases I can't see it's any different in parking - you still need to be able to defend yourself.

Totally different situations here. Speeding is a criminal matter, whilst virtually all parking is now deregulated to private contractors under the post-1991 regs & a civil matter with a different standard of proof & hearing system. Only a few places retain enforcement under the post-85 criminalregs & interestingly, levels of complaints & evidence of abuse is far lower in those areas.

The other thing is that an awful lot of the claims of having photos turn out to be false - no more than a scare tactic, as images have the lowest priority on the evidence tree & would only really be used to verify any minor concerns about the higher value evidence.

 

[madamv]

Hey agnes and pogofish.

The next stage is appeal through Parking and Traffic Appeals service. I have completed the form but tbh I am not convinced about any of them looking at things properly and saying 'holy crap it werent their van'. I would have thought that would have been easy enough to do at the initial stage.

Instead they said that they

have examined our records and considered the contents of your Representation but it does not provide us with ground to cancel the PCN. This letter is issued as formal Notice of Rejection of your representation against the issuance of the PCN.

Beggars belief... But, I shall continue to moan about it here - fear not!

 

[madamv]

Quick update. Letter received today from Parking and Traffic Appeals Service informs us that US V London Borough of Southwark is due to be heard on 12th June.

I just called them, I really cannot explain how gob smacked I am that no-one has seen sense and stopped it and sorted it out. The girl on the phone said there are only two ways, pay or go to court. What an unbelievable fucking waste of time, effort and money.

I am totally speechless (iykwim )

 

[salem]

You paid?

Do you realise that at last sight, tickets issued in Coventry were illegal - possibly even the worst in the entire UK. Despite a revision in January, they are still so badly and misleadingly worded that there is no way on earth an adjudicator or court would uphold them.

Any idea on whether Camden Council's tickets are illegal? (I left my vespa in a bay - which already had another small car in it - 4 minutes before it became free!)

Cost me £140ish as I had to pay baliff costs too. 4 bloody minutes

I'd love to get one over on them.