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Are the Welsh a separate "race"?

Are the Welsh a separate "race"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 23.5%
  • No

    Votes: 51 75.0%
  • Other (please state)

    Votes: 1 1.5%

  • Total voters
    68

reallyoldhippy

Banned
Banned
Not a dig - genuine question

butchersapron said:
Becaue, i'm quite clearly one of them rascists aren't i - despite the bit of my post that you lopped off that said that i don't believe in the idea of genetic races either.
Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?
 

TeeJay

New Member
adzp said:
Is this serious?
Are the Welsh/Japanese/Catalans/Scots/Basques/Jewish people/A.N. Other a `race`? No of course not. Is that a serious question?
I agree with you that the answer is "no". However, at the moment 25% of people have voted "yes", and I don't think we have had any ST**MF***T trolls voting either - judging from the fact that several long-term and left-wing posters have actually said on the thread itself they voted 'yes'.

You will see fom my posts in this thread that I definitely don't believe in the idea of so-called separate and distinct "races" at all.
 

Dr. Christmas

ca suffit
Interesting point, hippy: for the more sinister 'intellectual' racists subjects such as phrenology and quack science such as 'racial hygiene' a la nazi germany give a veneer of 'academic credibility' to their prejudice.

The majority rationale I suspect is fear/hatred of the 'other', irrationally expressed..
 

TeeJay

New Member
reallyoldhippy said:
Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?
Surely people can hate "the other" on the basis of:

* so-called "race" (eg appearance, skin, eye, hair colour etc)
* nationality/citizenship
* ethnicity (eg culture, language, religion, regional accent)
* culture/sub-culture/lifestyle choice
* random things that they decide to pick on - including gender, sexuality, disabilities for example.
 

butchersapron

blood on the walls
reallyoldhippy said:
Do you think that racists need to believe in an idea of genetic race? Do you think that racists hate the Irish, Gypsies (and Welsh) because of some idea of genetic purity? Do you think that many racists have such a rationality behind their racism? Or is it the "difference" that is abhorred rather than the "genetic difference"?
No i don't - that was a direct reply to idahos now taken back attempt to place me in the racists camp - i argued nothing beyond the idea that genetic race doesn't exist. So ask someone else please.
 

Funky_monks

Neo-Rustic
So, TeeJay, given that 'race' does not exist in your mind, does this therefore mean that racism cannot exist?

IMO, quite an interesting discussion about race and nationality was starting to emerge. Race and racism being quite an important issue, no?

The discussion may perhaps have shed some light on how people sought to define race, which, yes, is a purley human concept based, until recently on phenotype. This was, of course until that you saw that the thread which you had started with clear intention to troll (probably to use as ammo against certain posters when they cry 'racist' in the face of xenophobic commments made about the Welsh). You then felt the need to destroy it with a massive cut and paste plagurism session which neither effectivley utilised nor attempted to add to any of the science in your sources, and then to resort to petty bickering, as seems to be the case of late.

Actually got anything useful to add (which actually comes from you as oppose to plagurising off someone else)?

<edited to add: and which dosent involve you posting stupid pictures of livestock?>
 

Dr. Christmas

ca suffit
Re: Chester: there is a welsh idiom, cael Cwn Ci Caer , used to indicate having to get up very early. It literally means 'before the dogs of Chester'. This was because Chester was onew of those places where welshmen could be killed legally during daylight. hence A Welshman in Chester had to get up and leave before dawn to avoid the possible consequences.

mae rhaid i fi codi cael cwn ci Caer 'fory- I must get up very early tomorrow
 

TeeJay

New Member
Funky_monks said:
So, TeeJay, given that 'race' does not exist in your mind, does this therefore mean that racism cannot exist?
So-called separate "races" don't exist, but people can invent labels for themselves and other people based on physical appearances etc and claim that they therefore belong to a certain "race". When they then discrimate based on these false labels then that is racism.
Actually got anything useful to add (which actually comes from you as oppose to plagurising off someone else)?
Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*
 

flimsier

Banned
Banned
TeeJay said:
And as for you flimsitwat - whatever it is you are dribbling on about now, I don't care since you have deservedly gone straight back on the ignore list with your pathetic fucktard mates. If you want to talk to me then you'll have to wait for a few days and then I'll see if you have grown a brain. I kind of doubt it tho' although I am always willing to see if you have finally grown up, and will be checking up on your periodically. However, you few posts on this thread that I read were more than enough dribbly-shit for this week thank you very much. Now be a good chap and fuck off back under your stone. ;)
What was it you were saying about reporting posts?

Thing is, I wouldn't, you are too much entertainment.

I think he's flipped again!
 

flimsier

Banned
Banned
TeeJay said:
So-called separate "races" don't exist, but people can invent labels for themselves and other people based on physical appearances etc and claim that they therefore belong to a certain "race". When they then discrimate based on these false labels then that is racism.Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*
Do you think he thinks that pretending he's added to his ignore list upsets people?

Its funny how he pretends to ignore everyone who disagrees with him.

:rolleyes:
 

Funky_monks

Neo-Rustic
Question:

Have you actually got anything useful to add, which desn't involve you plagurising someone else?

Answer:

TeeJay said:
Yes: Fuck off, twat! And don't bother replying to that because guess what I am doing now...

*adds yet another dribbling arsehole to ignore list*

So, thats actually a 'no' then?
 

guinnessdrinker

political refugee
R.I.P.
adzp said:
Is this serious?
Are the Welsh/Japanese/Catalans/Scots/Basques/Jewish people/A.N. Other a `race`? No of course not. Is that a serious question?

Why not read some stuff about `race`, start with New Scientist. There the general thought is that (after mapping the human genome) that race doesnt really exist. For example 3 out of 10 American black men are genetically `caucasian`. Homo sapiens (and indeed it seems Neanderthals with whom it seems increasingly likely that Homo Sapiens interbred with) have moved about the planet back and forth for up to 1m years (depending on your definition of Homo Sapiens) and at least 250,000. Thats a lot of time to move about, even by foot.

The generally held idea (before the race doesnt exist one) was that there were...and you will have to check this as its off top of head...seven `races` around the world...

For example, are not Catalans and Basques also `Celtic`? And Bretons too? They were peoples who moved from what is now the Balkans across southern Europe, then along the coasts and across the seas? Hitting south west England and Ireland...(dont quote me on that one I'll have to go and read it up again its from memory).
what do you mean by some black men being "genetically caucasian"? are they not "genetically african" as well? do you mean that they happen to have european blood in them?

what's this nonsense about these seven races around the world? do you mean general human phenotypes? race is not a biological concept.

and the catalans and basques are definitely not celtic, mate. try galicia, perhaps. and the catalans (the name came from the gothic invaders, but the population is of mediterranean origin) and the basques never went to ireland and england. indeed the basques are assumed to have stayed in their mountains for thousands of years and their language is unique in the world, never mind not being indo-european.

do read up.
 

Idaho

blah blah blah
guinnessdrinker said:
and the basques never went to ireland and england. indeed the basques are assumed to have stayed in their mountains for thousands of years and their language is unique in the world, never mind not being indo-european.
The basques are a fascinating exception to just about everything to do with human migration and development out of africa. And quite so - they predate the 'celts' by tens of thousands of years.
 

guinnessdrinker

political refugee
R.I.P.
Belushi said:
interesting link, but what it says, really, is that when the celts invaded Britain, they took over existing populations posibly genetically related to the basques and bred with them. the celts moved to western europe 2500 to 3000 years ago, the basques are said to be so separate from other european people that it may have been 40000 years ago that genetic differences started to occur. sounds to me that it is going back to the time when the first Cro Magnons arrived and beat the shit out of the Neanderthals. there is a theory out there, actually, that a few neanderthals managed to breed with the sapiens. ernie is the nearest proof we have of that theory.
 

Idaho

blah blah blah
"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.
Arf arf...

All the evidence given throughout this thread has come form the exact same bit of research. It will be interesting in a few years time when there are more studies out there to compare with.
 

TeeJay

New Member
If people were *really* serious about this subject rather than being far more interested in tribalistic/nationalistic flag-waving then wouldn't they be interested in studies on populations all over the world? If you divided the global population up into "Welsh-sized" groups (c.3 million iirc) you'd have over 2000 of them.

I am reminded slightly of the Japanese (Shinto) creation myth with the Ni-Hon-Jin (lit. True/original-Sun-People) being created when Ameratsu - the sun goddess - dipped her spear into the ocean and formed Japan. This story says that they are the 'original humans'. Everyone else is a "Gai-Jin" (outside-person). Many cultures have their own equivalent foundation or creation myth that places them at the centre of the universe or proposes some divinely-inspired or prestigous origins for their 'people/nation'.

You don't get many which say "we are all just a mish-mash of intermarriage, migration and borrowed culture, and really there isn't anything special or unique about us at all". It seems that even some scientists are still pandering to national boundaries, asking questions that bound by preconcieved identities and using the language of so-called "race" (or this might just be the BBC journalist?). I think you will see some far more serious research happening as the human genome project starts to be used for medical applications and is rolled out internationally. There will be no demand for romanticised and pre-determined boxes based on historical and national/cultural myths as health systems and reseachers in each country will simply want to know the genetic profile of their target population, for medical purposes. They won't be trying to prove or disprove some bogus or politically-charged rewriting of the history books or be having tenuous arguments over national/cultural identity being linked to genetics.
 

ernestolynch

Banned
Banned
I believe that the Celts are a seperate race from all the others. Scientists have proven that the IQ of Celts is on average 20% higher than other races. This can even be passed on to half-Celts and quatro-Celts.

The purest of Celts would be located in the western-most parts of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Breizh and Galicia.

It is reported that the Celtic Race is as close to perfection as is possible.
 
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