Are some people born smarter?

[rhys gethin]

Just a little observation re sports and intelligence.

Popular wisdom has it that football players tend not to be academically very bright, in contrast to certain other sports such as rowing and cycling which attract a disproportionate number of people with some higher education under their belts.

But I reckon football is more mentally demanding to play in some ways than the nerdy sports of rowing and cycling. There's more going on at once, more things to keep track of.

In my own experience, for what it's worth, sportspeople range from passably bright to very smart indeed, and are fairly unpredictable. Because they have this physical talent, they tend to escape the IQ/Education sorting machine - though, of course, early success does few people any good by way of character. Still, they are quite fun to be around till they start earning.

 

[rhys gethin]

I think what we reward is the component of human nature that comes more down to culture than innate instincts, and that is what's very interesting.

Evolutionary psychologists would have us believe that we are machines built to predict the genomes of and conquer members of the opposite sex who will give us the most genetically robust offspring, but that's clearly not what humans do. We are so completely trend-driven in this respect that one wonders how we manage to procreate in the first place!

A lot of people over the years have managed not to, even when there was no reliable birth-control. Isn't it odd how those ev-psychs will hold forth about what is so obviously not true - and then (often) mock at religion!

 

[Julie]

With respect to "traditional" notions of intelligence, yes, some people are born smarter.

As for whether we can makes ourselves smarter (by reading, for example), we can increase our IQ by a few points. But not make a huge difference.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Or can you make yourself smart by reading books?

Is there a limit to how much you can learn from reading books, compared to what someone with a "natural ability" is able to achieve?

Is there such thing as "natural ability"?

Should people try hard to make themselves the best at something, or should they be "happy with their lot"?

If everyone tries their best, to make themselves succeed as far as possible, is this necessarily good for society?

You can make a difference with books etc, but within a window of ability determined by your genetics etc.

No matter how hard you try, you'll never beat Lance Armstrong in a bike race, and you won't come up with the latest theory of relativity.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

With respect to "traditional" notions of intelligence, yes, some people are born smarter.

As for whether we can makes ourselves smarter (by reading, for example), we can increase our IQ by a few points. But not make a huge difference.

You can get your IQ up through reading etc. As you know, part of the verbal index on tests like the WAIS include word definition, general knowledge etc.

 

[Firky]

I scored zero on an IQ test but have a vocabulary that is 60% above average. According to UoP in 2004.

 

[Yossarian]

How the fuck does anyone score zero in an IQ test? Did you spoil the paper or something?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I scored zero on an IQ test but have a vocabulary that is 60% above average. According to UoP in 2004.

I think you get one point if you're able to show up at the testing room.

 

[118118]

Iirc you can iincrease verbal on average 8-10, and maths 4. The other two are speed and spatial. Verbal is apparently slightly less hereditary as well.

Weird thing with me is that I used to have quite a high maths iq, but its switched places with my verbal iq since I've started to read. Its really quite terrible now. It might have something to do with the fact that I have (less at the moment) trouble concentrating due to meds/etc.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If some people aren't born smarter, then explain this guy; he was composing at age three, and playing chess.... blindfolded..... at age six.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_Nyiregyhazi

 

[Spion]

Why would you need specific proof? It seems bizzare to think that height, weight, eyesight, hearing, etc, etc all have a genetic component and that the various strands that make up intelligence do not.

it doesn't seem bizarre to me. Limbs, hair, eyes etc all obviously do vary a lot physically. How do brains vary in their physical make-up?

 

[8ball]

How do brains vary in their physical make-up?

Oh, the irony

 

[weltweit]

I am quite sure some people are born smarter.

Yes there is nature and there is also nurture.

I think people have different aptitudes, and where people develop and learn sypathetic to their aptitudes then differences in cleverness (within that subject) can become quite marked.

Nurture cannot explain a child prodigy like Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, he had to be nature.

 

[Spion]

I just can't be sure. I don't think anyone has demonstrated how the mechanism of inherited 'smartness' works. All anyone's saying is 'look at him, how do you explain that?', which isn't really good enough

 

[Giles]

I just can't be sure. I don't think anyone has demonstrated how the mechanism of inherited 'smartness' works. All anyone's saying is 'look at him, how do you explain that?', which isn't really good enough

I don't for a minute see why anyone cannot be sure that intelligence is inherited to quite a large extent.

I mean, no-one has a problem accepting that most other characteristics are inherited, so why the doubt over intelligence?

People breed dogs to deliberately improve intelligence and temperament, and have been doing so for hundreds of years.

Obviously nurture plays a big part too - if your bright kid is given no mental stimulation or encouraged to learn, then his talent would be largely wasted.

Giles..

 

[Aldebaran]

I just can't be sure. I don't think anyone has demonstrated how the mechanism of inherited 'smartness' works. All anyone's saying is 'look at him, how do you explain that?', which isn't really good enough

Well, I'm a living example that indeed some children are considered to be extremely abnormal at a very young age.
I can't do anything else then assume that it is indeed "inborn" but you are correct, to date nobody can be sure such cases depend on - or have a - genetically pre-conditioning component. Yet the argument that proposes sociological (and even environmental factors) as the only explanation is not credible for me.

I'm still waiting for you listings of what you consider "normal"

salaam.

 

[Spion]

I don't for a minute see why anyone cannot be sure that intelligence is inherited to quite a large extent.

I mean, no-one has a problem accepting that most other characteristics are inherited, so why the doubt over intelligence?..

because it's so obvious with physical characteristics. If two parents are tall then you get a tall child. Easy. But the brain is just a blob of (mostly) fat, in which a not-entirely understood process which gives us mind takes place. What characteristics - physical and mental - of the brain/mind are heritable?

if you're so sure, tell me how it works.

 

[Spion]

Well, I'm a living example that indeed some children are considered to be extremely abnormal at a very young age.
I can't do anything else then assume that it is indeed "inborn" but you are correct, to date nobody can be sure such cases depend on - or have a - genetically pre-conditioning component. Yet the argument that proposes sociological (and even environmental factors) as the only explanation is not credible for me.

I'm still waiting for you listings of what you consider "normal"

salaam.

I haven't mentioned the word "normal".

Wa salaam

 

[J77]

Well, I'm a living example that indeed some children are considered to be extremely abnormal at a very young age.

Two heads?!?

 

[Aldebaran]

I haven't mentioned the word "normal".

No, I did. I asked you what you consider normal (post 52) when you asked Idaho for "proof" in post 51.

If we don't establish the standard against which you reason, , it is difficult to demonstrate, let alone "prove" any deviation thereof, isn't it?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Two heads?!?

Yes. One dyslexic and one trying to beat Dyslecx into a well deserved coma. The result can leave a somewhat chaotic impression on the innocent bystander.

salaam.

 

[J77]

Yes. One dyslexic and one trying to beat Dyslecx into a well deserved coma. The result can leave a somewhat chaotic impression on the innocent bystander.

salaam.

You've confused me even more now.

Was your abnormality severe dyslexia?

 

[Spion]

No, I did. I asked you what you consider normal (post 52) when you asked Idaho for "proof" in post 51.

If we don't establish the standard against which you reason, , it is difficult to demonstrate, let alone "prove" any deviation thereof, isn't it?

salaam.

I think that's diverting from the point, which is to demonstrate how genetic inheritance in the field of intelligence is passed on and how we can be certain that it is inheritance and not environment that is the key factor.

 

[Aldebaran]

You've confused me even more now.

Was your abnormality severe dyslexia?

No, it came to it as an extra birthgift.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think that's diverting from the point, which is to demonstrate how genetic inheritance in the field of intelligence is passed on and how we can be certain that it is inheritance and not environment that is the key factor.

It is not my studyfield, but when only looking at my genealogy I see clear indications in favour of that theory.
What do you mean exactly with "environment".
It seems that nutrition of the pregnant woman or nutrition during the first years can have influence on the general- and also the specific brain development (most research focussed on a negative influence) of a child, but I don't think that is what we are talking about.

salaam.

 

[Spion]

What do you mean exactly with "environment".
It seems that nutrition of the pregnant woman or nutrition during the first years can have influence on the general- and also the specific brain development (most research focussed on a negative influence) of a child, but I don't think that is what we are talking about.

salaam.

A fair point - and I think it is part of what we're talking about. Obviously the environment of the foetus pre-birth seems to have some effect as does illness, intoxication etc. Then there is the post-natal early development, not to mention the vexed issue of herited intelligence. To get near an answer it's a case of weighing up the mechanism of how these things affect a brain/mind and to what extent each plays a part

 

[Giles]

because it's so obvious with physical characteristics. If two parents are tall then you get a tall child. Easy. But the brain is just a blob of (mostly) fat, in which a not-entirely understood process which gives us mind takes place. What characteristics - physical and mental - of the brain/mind are heritable?

if you're so sure, tell me how it works.

A baby is "just a little blob" in general, but if that particular baby has inherited genes which will make him grow tall, then he will grow tall. Same with intelligence. I don't understand the ins and outs of genetics for either physical or mental inherited characteristics. But I don't need to understand this to know that it happens.

I assume that inheriting intelligence means something like better connections between cells in the brain?

If someone inherits athletic prowess, what does that mean?

Giles..

 

[Spion]

I don't understand the ins and outs of genetics for either physical or mental inherited characteristics. But I don't need to understand this to know that it happens.

if you can't pin down how it works I'm not sure you can actually say you do know it happens as other factors may be coming into play.

 

[Idaho]

There have been a fair number of studies which compare test results of children compared to their parents - both biological and adoptive. The suggestion from these studies are that in the earlier years - pre-teen, the correlation with the biological parents measured intelligence (with all it's caveats) is very strong.

There also seems to be a suggestion that post-teen the adoptive parents can have a certain amount of influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

http://www.med.yale.edu/chldstdy/plomdevelop/genetics/99jungen.htm

 

[Idaho]

But the brain is just a blob of (mostly) fat

Just like a fox is made of string?

I don't think many neurologists would be quite so dismissive of our brain