Are queers secret agents of capitalism?

[Isambard]

Though I thought my trolley dolly sounded well dominating and powerful. He's trying to stop InBloom and phil twatting each other with the in-flight magazine.

Cat fight at 30 000 feet as its realised there is only one bottle left of the Dolce and Gabbana after-shave "Butch" in the duty free stock!

 

[kyser_soze]

Cat fight at 30 000 feet as its realised there is only one bottle left of the Dolce and Gabbana after-shave "Butch" in the duty free stock!

Desparate and Grasping more like.

 

[Isambard]

Yes, that "label" is SO over!

 

[belboid]

Derian...I remember about 15 years ago watching a documentary about the Gay Rights movement in the US on marches yelling out 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it' so this isn't some kind of 'recent' reclamation.

"we're here, we're queer, and we're not going shopping"

was one of the funnest chants when I used to go on Pride - back when it was Pride rather than some shit pink pound party.

 

[soulrebel]

The "battyman" thing [in reggae] is more complex than you think. Amazingly enough, it doesn't readily fit in with the bourgeois ideology that you have imbibed. To overstand it, you have to read the Bible, and pay particular attention to the association between "barren" forms of sexuality and those economic sytems that force barren money to "breed."

who said that, and what thread/board did they say it on?

(suspects ppl from certain reggae boards...)

(and that's blatantly a load of bollox, but i'd like to know what viewpoint the person saying it is coming from, before i start going into rasta repatriation-ism as an analogue of queer liberation...)

 

[rednblack]

I'd have thought the obvious argument is that gay men are huge consumers - can't be arsed to dig the research out but gay men spend more on consumer items across ALL categories than any other group, and that the whole 'look great, party hard' hedonistic ethos of elements of gay culture would make them perfect capitalist patsies...

not forgetting that many gay men despise that life style and those who pracitce it, not to mention those who can't afford it

don't confuse the gay scene with gay men (or women)

 

[rednblack]

There IS an argument to be had imvho about how (mostly) white middle class gay men are moving into the establishment and what it means for the <my favourite cliche> the "working class lesbian immigrant in Lewisham".

Sleeping with your own gender might might break some barriers but throws up others.

white middle class liberal gays have never had anything to offer anyone - who you shag does not determine politics most of the time

 

[Isambard]

white middle class liberal gays have never had anything to offer anyone

Perhaps, but maybe they can be "dragged" in the right direction.

 

[D]

Fuck this "secret agent" business and bring on:

Captain Niche Market...

ta-da!

 

[jæd]

not forgetting that many gay men despise that life style and those who pracitce it, not to mention those who can't afford it

don't confuse the gay scene with gay men (or women)

And then there are the uber-politicised gay men. Spend all their time protesting for queer rights and forming politically correct groups advocating parental rights for gay men. Us scene queens don't completely despise that lifestyl but do note that (a) they should get out more and (b) what *are* they wearing...?

 

[Clintons Cat]

No, you've reacted like someone who's being really 'right on' and probably complained about NWA using the word 'Nigga' in their songs because it's racist....

At the risk of derailing the thread,


30 years ago Lenny Bruce was using the word Nigger in his Stand-up

20 years ago Richard Pryor was using the word nigger in his comedy routine

10 years ago,Ice cube and dr dre were calling each other their niggas

1 year ago Kanye West was using it in his songs

Q. How much reclaimation does a word need?

 

[bluestreak]

aaaarrrgghh the phildwyer arguments are shifting.....


resist resist...

 

[wrysmile]

Derian...I remember about 15 years ago watching a documentary about the Gay Rights movement in the US on marches yelling out 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it' so this isn't some kind of 'recent' reclamation.

I'd have thought the obvious argument is that gay men are huge consumers - can't be arsed to dig the research out but gay men spend more on consumer items across ALL categories than any other group, and that the whole 'look great, party hard' hedonistic ethos of elements of gay culture would make them perfect capitalist patsies...

To me, the 'patsy' description implies that a lot gay men 'don't know any better' or are being forced to comply with the 'buy-buy-buy' mentality to prop up the capitalist system. Which I think is a/ a stretch and b/ a little insulting to the intelligence of gay men. So if they like to shop/consume, that makes them a patsy? What if they like to shop? What if they love capitalism?
There is a sector of gay society that does aspire to the 'look great' etc ideal, but do we actually have any idea of the size of the chunk of that sector? As opposed to those who hate the idea of it?

Anyway, I don't know why I'm taking special issue at this, this whole fucking thread is disgraceful and I can't believe someone's even raised this utter twattery. As if gay people don't have enough to battle in the first place without useless bloody conjecture that they're somehow conspiring against "the worker". What toss.

 

[kyser_soze]

Hey, don't stress with me for using the language of class warfare to describe a bunch of consumers who spend more per head than any other group...

Besides, I couldn't think of a better word at the time...

r'n'b - forgot to add 'many' - you tend to not use words like 'many' when all the research you've ever seen about the 'pink pound' against the estimated gay male population says that over 50% of them lead that kind of lifestyle...

 

[D]

Q. How much reclaimation does a word need?

Surely the point is that once a word has been reclaimed it becomes a working (if still charged) part of the vernacular...why reclaim a word only to abandon it after you've made your point (unless you've decided to supplement or supplant it with a clearer, more effective, more charged, more-in-need-of-(re)appropriation one)?

defaced/facelifted billboard on Karl Marx Allee, Berlin...with the image at that size, it's hard to see the full tinsel mustachioed glory of it

 

[Clintons Cat]

a good point d,however,unlike say black which used to be used in a purely purjurtive manner(#1),the word nigger and its usage hasn't substantially altered though;because beyond the meedja gheto of using the word to make whatever tat product they are pushing seem "edgy and dangerous" ,it is still context sensitive.

I Wouldn't feel comfortable adressing a black person as a nigger,and if a black person introduced themselves to me as my nigga,truth be told i would think them a bit of a nob.

Lenny Bruce would argue its because society and those that inhabit it has not been saying the word nigger enough,i would argue that it has been using it too damn much.

(#1) re the black is beautiful/say it once,say it loud campaigns of the 70s

 

[D]

Are you white?

I think it's a mistake to assume that everyone's intention (or that there is, in fact, a single intention) behind the reclamation of a word like nigger is to make it possible for *everyone* to feel comfortable using the word. I think it might have something to do with enabling black people to control discourse.

I know loads of people - outside the "meedja ghetto" - who refer to each other as "niggaz". Sometimes they refer to me as a "nigga", which I have had varying reactions to...being white...but it's always been a term of affinity/recognition when I've received it and I've appreciated it as such.

***

I had an interesting chat once with a colleague over burritos (there was a whole weird subplot of him trying to get me into bed, which, I think, permeated all our interactions with a strange power-vying dynamic...interesting in this context, but anyway...). I was quoting a friend of mine who used the word "nigga" - I can't even remember the context - and the colleague with whom I was chatting got extremely uneasy about the two of us speaking in this taqueria: me, a young white woman, him, a middle-aged black man, surrounded by various people - not really friends - whom he'd known years ago when he was on the streets. My colleague told me he was uncomfortable with my using the word, not because he thought I used it with injurious intent, but because it made him uneasy, particularly with all those people around...and I don't know that it would have made him similarly uneasy had I been, say, a black man.

I apologized, clarified, etc; but, unfortunately, my colleague chose later to defend his atrocious anti-Semitic comment and ridiculous behavior all-around (after I told him I was not interested in him sexually) by citing that conversation in the taqueria as justification for his obnoxious behavior.

***

Well, after that derail of all derails, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Clintons Cat]

mixed race,if i walked down the street what would you see me as?

from what your saying and i would agree with you,is that it's use is a mark of exclusivity,within the group it's considered part of the social norm,outside the peer group however its use should rightfully remain proscribed.

but However much bravado is put upon it though essentially it still remains the language of the oppressor and the bully.I feel by defining oneself in the language of the oppressor,its a form of self conditioning,which is about as far removed from empowerment as it is possible to get.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

If you're going to make moronic, ignorant comments about "barren sex" in the context that you did you should expect to be accused of fucking homophobia.

You can fuck right off if you expect an apology from me, the only one who's done anything worth apologising for is you, and I won't be holding my fucking breath.

Are you supposed to use words such as "queer" on your thread title, and then hurl a load of abuse at those who have the decency to criticise you for it?

 

[wrysmile]

Hey, don't stress with me for using the language of class warfare to describe a bunch of consumers who spend more per head than any other group...

Besides, I couldn't think of a better word at the time...

r'n'b - forgot to add 'many' - you tend to not use words like 'many' when all the research you've ever seen about the 'pink pound' against the estimated gay male population says that over 50% of them lead that kind of lifestyle...

I'm not stressing with you class warrior, merely your choice of words, which you deserved to be called on

 

[kyser_soze]

That's one of the funniest things I've ever been called on Urban

Kyser_soze - Class Warrior.

PMSL

 

[D]

mixed race,if i walked down the street what would you see me as?

I have no idea. Probably mixed? I've never seen you (well, I don't think I have ...)

but However much bravado is put upon it though essentially it still remains the language of the oppressor and the bully.I feel by defining oneself in the language of the oppressor,its a form of self conditioning,which is about as far removed from empowerment as it is possible to get.

To each their own. I love the word queer.

This discussion reminds me of the first time I heard the word "niggardly". I was about 11 or 12 and I had this French teacher - a black American woman - who used it one day, holding forth about something or other at the head of the class. The room went absolutely, deadly silent. None of us knew what she meant, but we all knew - or thought we knew - that we were hearing a black woman use the word "nigger". I don't think the tension was particularly calmed nor confusion abated by her explanation of the word's meaning - "ungenerous, meager in spending".

Of course, the word's origins are Norse and have nothing whatsoever to do with the etymology of "nigger". She didn't tell us that at the time.

 

[wrysmile]

That's one of the funniest things I've ever been called on Urban

Kyser_soze - Class Warrior.

PMSL

Well stop talkin' the talk then - FRAUD!

 

[Clintons Cat]

I have no idea. Probably mixed? I've never seen you (well, I don't think I have ...)

actually fwiw,i don't really like the term mixed-race,i prefer the term "special"

To each their own. I love the word queer.

i trust the novelty will never wear off.

This discussion reminds me of the first time I heard the word "niggardly". I was about 11 or 12 and I had this French teacher - a black American woman - who used it one day, holding forth about something or other at the head of the class. The room went absolutely, deadly silent. None of us knew what she meant, but we all knew - or thought we knew - that we were hearing a black woman use the word "nigger". I don't think the tension was particularly calmed nor confusion abated by her explanation of the word's meaning - "ungenerous, meager in spending".

Of course, the word's origins are Norse and have nothing whatsoever to do with the etymology of "nigger". She didn't tell us that at the time.

but the etymology of nigger and nigga are one and the same.

 

[MysteryGuest]

but the etymology of nigger and nigga are one and the same.

No they're not.

niggard
1366, nygart, of uncertain origin. The suffix suggests Fr. origin (cf. dastard), but the root word is probably related to O.N. hnøggr "stingy," from P.Gmc. *khnauwjaz (cf. Swed. njugg "close, careful," Ger. genau "precise, exact"), and to O.E. hneaw "stingy, niggardly," which did not survive in M.E.

from:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=n&p=4


Not that it should matter that much anyway etymological fallacy and all that, though that's contentious...

 

[JWH]

Yes, they are separate, I think you might have misread Clinton's post (or maybe I have).

"Nigger" and "nigga" are two spellings of the same word, but "niggardly" is indeed of different origin. Personally, I would avoid using the word "niggardly" because although I know it's not racist to use it, not everyone that might hear/read it is necessarily some sort of amateur etymologist/word bore like what I am. I haven't got enough time or finesse to go around explaining what words mean to other people.

"Nigger" and "nigga" are American imports to the UK, aren't they? Quite old imports, though, because the word "nigger" is used in some of the Sherlock Holmes stories, so it's not a 20th century import. Although obviously there wasn't much demand for such a word before lots of black people moved to the UK and racist fuckspuds wanted an unpleasant word to use.

 

[In Bloom]

Are you supposed to use words such as "queer" on your thread title, and then hurl a load of abuse at those who have the decency to criticise you for it?

For a start, Phil (who that post was directed at) wasn't on about that. Piss off you irritating little PC troll.

 

[mk12]

Are queers secret agents of capitalism?

Of course they are. Look at them for fucks sake.

 

[rednblack]

And then there are the uber-politicised gay men. Spend all their time protesting for queer rights and forming politically correct groups advocating parental rights for gay men. Us scene queens don't completely despise that lifestyl but do note that (a) they should get out more and (b) what *are* they wearing...?

i don't think they actually exist do they? i've never met any (thank god)

 

[Clintons Cat]

Yes, they are separate, I think you might have misread Clinton's post (or maybe I have).

"Nigger" and "nigga" are two spellings of the same word, but "niggardly" is indeed of different origin. Personally, I would avoid using the word "niggardly" because although I know it's not racist to use it, not everyone that might hear/read it is necessarily some sort of amateur etymologist/word bore like what I am. I haven't got enough time or finesse to go around explaining what words mean to other people.

"Nigger" and "nigga" are American imports to the UK, aren't they? Quite old imports, though, because the word "nigger" is used in some of the Sherlock Holmes stories, so it's not a 20th century import. Although obviously there wasn't much demand for such a word before lots of black people moved to the UK and racist fuckspuds wanted an unpleasant word to use.

yes that was indeed what i was getting at,Nigga as in the ebonic spelling of Nigger.appologies for not clarifying that earlier.

"Children are the only future of any people. If the children's lives are squandered, and if the children…are not fully developed at whatever cost and sacrifice, the people will have consigned themselves to certain death"
Frances Cress Welsing, The Isis Papers, 1991


Dr. Welsing: I am suggesting that for the sake of Black mental health and for Black intelligence that all people of color must understand the dynamic of racism, what it is and how it works, so that they can have an appropriate, self-respecting response to racism.

Television is indoctrinating Black people to think of themselves as buffoons and clowns and trashy people. By understanding racism you will understand that this is what the system of racism survives on.

As long as we are disrespecting ourselves and acting in a stupid, demeaning manner, this furthers the dynamic of racism and we need to give a lot of thought to that and decide that we are not going to participate in it.