Are Lambeth Labour going to get voted back in in 2018?

Discussion in 'Brixton' started by teuchter, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Mr Retro

    Mr Retro Beware hedgehogs

    I expected her to skate in. As you say she had a genuinely high profile for a councillor.

    It surprises me in general the lack of Independents in british politics. In the last Irish election there were I think 18 elected to the Dail (parliament). That’s nearly 10% of the total.

    About 20% of local councillors are independent.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  2. Tricky Skills

    Tricky Skills I demand tea - NOW!

  3. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    Mr Retro Just interested: Any theories as to why its so different here and seemingly impossible to get anywhere if you stand as independent?
     
  4. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    If you compare the case of Anna Tapsell (Larkhall 1998) it is rather similar. The deselected Tapsell (who had been Labour group leader in 1994) got 413 standing as independent whereas the official Labour got 1357 (Craig) 1252 (Bawden) 1112 (McCaulay Green). The party label is incredibly important in British politics.

    Getting 660 is a big achievement for an independent candidate - and in line with the Green vote in Coldharbour Ward (despite no overt cooperation).

    For the record when I stood as independent in Coldharbour I got exactly 100 votes. Draw your own conclusions.
     
    Gramsci and Tricky Skills like this.
  5. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    Mr Retro bimble surely Irish elections are all done on STV (single transferable vote)?
    Under that system you put your candidates in order of preference, and if they don't get in the vote transfers to the next preferred candidate.
    Not one vote is wasted - and the result is perfectly in accordance with the wishes of the electorate.

    Could never have that here - MPs have repeatedly said its too complicate for British voters to understand.
     
  6. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    tbf CH1 maybe the MPs are right, I don't understand.
    Screen Shot 2018-05-05 at 09.31.24.png
    :confused::(
     
  7. aka

    aka Brixton Hill

    Rachel really didn't declare early enough. The second she was booted she should have been campaigning. Hindsight I guess.
     
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  8. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    I am surprised about Rachel too - she seems a really good councillor and it was courageous to do what she did.

    I guess one factor that we must take into account is that most of the electorate aren’t interested in Politics (even if they are interested in issues which are inherently political). Most people didn’t vote. And of those that did, I’m guessing a lot voted on traditional party lines. We get the politicians we deserve.
     
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  9. Southlondon

    Southlondon The river's there for a reason

    Rachel must have been a well respected councillor to do as well as she did, but people like myself voted for the Labour Party candidates because we support the Labour Party and want to see Corbyn as Prime minister. Members like myself have remained members and campaign to bring the local party more in line with the national party, despite the pressure from the dominant new labour remnants. If we had all walked away or stood as opponents there would be no Corbyn and zero chance of a Labour government. The turnout Is always low in locals, as most people won’t vote if they are happy with the way things are in their locality, and the fact that Lambeth labour have won 4 elections in a row for the first time ever, and post-Corbyn membership has doubled and is still growing, shows that across the Borough there is a lot of support for the party. For us Corbynites the challenge is to recruit left wing members at a faster rate than the right wing are currently achieving in the Borough. The way to change Lambeth labour is to fight from within not to support greens/libdems who have a track record of supporting Tories when they get a sniff of power. The anyone but labour crowd sound desperate and marginal, and Rachel unfortunately put herself in that camp
    QUOTE="Winot, post: 15545440, member: 27689"]I am surprised about Rachel too - she seems a really good councillor and it was courageous to do what she did.

    I guess one factor that we must take into account is that most of the electorate aren’t interested in Politics (even if they are interested in issues which are inherently political). Most people didn’t vote. And of those that did, I’m guessing a lot voted on traditional party lines. We get the politicians we deserve.[/QUOTE]
     
  10. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    By returning the same faces to the same seats? How does this help your stated goal of Corbyn becoming pm anyway.
     
  11. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    You don't need to know all that when you vote. You just put the candidates in order of preference - like a competition on a cornflake packet.
    Even I can do that.
     
    bimble likes this.
  12. Tricky Skills

    Tricky Skills I demand tea - NOW!

    So you voted for stooges who campaigned heavily to remove Corbyn :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
     
  13. editor

    editor Taffus Maximus

    The trouble with that tactic would be that it would have given plenty of time for Labour to do their utmost to discredit and destroy her in the lead up to the election.
     
  14. Southlondon

    Southlondon The river's there for a reason

    The only way they will go, Is when we can out vote them and select candidates more in line with the national party. Only the membership can achieve that. Leaving the party for the fringe groupletts only serves to strengthen them. With a huge tribal support base in Lambeth, standing candidates against the party is fruitless change will come from within as it has nationally. Lefties leaving the party or standing against them is exactly what they want.
     
  15. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    The other thing is cost. I reckon her double-sided glossy colour leaflet could have cost £400 or more - assuming say 8,000 were printed to leaflet the whole ward and hand out on the street.

    If you were to do a run of several leaflets it would obviously cost multiples - plus unless carefully worded "early" leaflets would also come into election expenses which are limited to about £500 per candidate.

    Yet another reason why a party ticket scores - the leaflets and other expenses are divided between the three candidates.
     
    editor likes this.
  16. Mr Retro

    Mr Retro Beware hedgehogs

    It needs somebody with better political knowledge than me to give the right reason but I suspect Proportional Representation has a lot to do with it like CH1 said. Also along with PR there is more than 1 seat in each constituency. For example in my old constituency 5 seats are up for grabs so you can vote for an independent and your party and they might all be successful.

    There is also a thing in Ireland where in some areas independents live on through a party that’s been wound up. So people are voting historically for the party who the independent has links to. I was trying to find reference to that online but couldn’t.
     
  17. Mr Retro

    Mr Retro Beware hedgehogs

    I was following yesterday’s blog in the afternoon. Really enjoyed the updates and reporting.
     
    Tricky Skills likes this.
  18. Slo-mo

    Slo-mo Banned Banned

    I'm no fan of the Greens but I don't think you can put them in the same category as the LibDems in terms of supporting the Tories.

    I'm really struggling to think of an example of the Greens supporting the Tories, actually, and the only one I can think of was a long time ago and a long way from Lambeth.
     
  19. Southlondon

    Southlondon The river's there for a reason

    They formed a coalition with the Tories in Leeds a while back, and acted like Tories in Brighton where they cut workers wages by thousands. Abroad the greens have supported right wing coalitions in Ireland.
    I was thinking
     
  20. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    As has been already pointed out to you Lambeth Labour are happy enough to do deals with Cineworld despite the long running dispute under their nose.
     
    Tricky Skills likes this.
  21. Slo-mo

    Slo-mo Banned Banned

    Yeah that's the only example I'm aware of, but a long time ago and not in Lambeth.
    And indeed in Germany, but those are totally different parties, completely unrelated to the English and Welsh Green Party.
     
  22. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    In hindsight I agree that was a factor.

    I think she was hoping to be allowed back into the Labour Group after her six month suspension from the group. This wasn't punishment enough and she was told she would have to go in front of another Labour Group committee to admit her errors and show contrition.

    Its not as if she went against Labour group manifesto. So imo she left matters as they were. She never really publicly advertised that she was an Independent. Problem being that meant she had no chance of re selection.

    So I don't think she really wanted to stand against official Labour candidates.

    It was late in the day when she finally decided to stand.

    She had a lot of support from ordinary Lambeth Labour party members. I know some and heard amongst ordinary members there was a lot of sympathy for Rachel.

    So imo whilst she was highly critical of the leadership and the dictatorial way the Labour group was run she wasn't criticising the Labour party. In fact she, unlike the Lambeth Labour party leadership, openly supported Corbyn.

    So in a way she didn't see herself as an Independent.

    It was a difficult message to get across. When leafleting I met someone who recognised Rachel. Took a lot of explaining to get message across.

    Southlondon makes point that one should stay in Labour party, even in Rachels case, and work to get these New Labour Cllrs deselected. Its easy to see who they are as they didn't vote for Corbyn.

    Also use Labour party rules to get control over ward parties even if Cllrs are New Labour.

    In hindsight Rachels campaign was to nice. Look at the leaflets. Maybe campaign should have been more upfront on saying what she had been saying at hustings. But a more aggressive campaign would have met with the same from Labour Group possibly.

    I got distinct feeling that lack of canvassing/ leafleting in Coldharbour ward can be partly attributed to ordinary members not wanting to do canvassing against Rachel.

    It doesn't help that the candidate to replace Rachel was no where to be seen during the election period. The candidate parachuted in as safe pair of hands.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
    editor likes this.
  23. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    The tribal support was a factor in Coldharbour ward. I know the ward and it has always been Labour.

    To move Lambeth Labour away from New Labour/ Third Way is going to mean that ordinary members will have to be as ruthless as the existing right wing leadership. I don't see it happening without an internal war in the Lambeth party that doubtless the right wing press like Evening Standard will jump on.

    It does surprise me but New Labour people/ Cllrs in Lambeth I've met are also tribal. They really believe in what they are doing is the best for the party.
     
    Tricky Skills likes this.
  24. Southlondon

    Southlondon The river's there for a reason

    Of course they believe in their policies. They are just as ideological as the left. It won’t be a blood bath anymore than it has been elsewhere, it just needs numbers to out vote them. When people choose to leave the party they are no longer able to affect the balance within the party and thus the right wing become that little bit stronger every tine. People leaving or voting against the party doesn’t weaken the blairittes it strengthens them.
     
    Gramsci likes this.
  25. Southlondon

    Southlondon The river's there for a reason

    A lot of the left wing green members left to join labour when Corbyn became leader ( and indeed helped to get him elected). A lot of greens I meet seem to be the more liberal and less socialist variety. I’m sure there are some good ones left but when I look at the mess they made of Brighton with the way they treated the unions, I’m glad they will never be more than a fringe group in London
     
  26. aka

    aka Brixton Hill

    no such thing as bad publicity. it was a mistake to not go early and hard - worst case she loses - which is what happened.
     
  27. Jonti

    Jonti what the dormouse said

    Hindsight is easy and the decision must have been agonising for poor Rachel. We'll never know what would have happened had she declared and fought as a Corbynista, framing the inevitable attacks from the Blairites as just that. My guess is that Coldharbour (my ward) is more Corbynista than nuLabour and the message would have gotten through.
     
  28. Smick

    Smick Strictly Second Class

    A lot of the Irish independent TDs are
    A lot of the independents in Ireland top the vote. Some have former connections to parties like Lowry with Fine Gael and the Healy-Raes have inherited the political influence of their father, who was an FF man.
     
  29. stevebradley

    stevebradley Well-Known Member

    Irish politics has a significantly more parochial element than in Britain, and also has a history of dynastic politics. People getting votes just on the basis of who their elected father is/was (it's almost always a male relative).

    Some of the independents elected to the Dail are frankly an embarrassment (e.g. the Healy-Rae's), but get in because they're 'big characters' who are well known in parts of the country where it's not hard to become well known (e.g. Luke 'Ming' Flanagan). Irish politics is much closer to America than Britain in how it functions culturally - particularly in its use of patronage (e.g. the old Tammany Hall system in new York).

    The main reason why independents get elected in Ireland and elsewhere is the voting system. FPTP entrenches a two-party system - even if the particular two parties involved differ by area.
     
  30. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    In terms of canvassing, it appears - from reports from local branch members - that Labour pulled out all the stops on the estates in the week running up to the election, with the usual "Labour will get you a new kitchen/bathroom" balls, alongside "if you vote for Heywood, the Tories will get in". A couple of acquaintances apparently walked away from canvassing, when told to chat that shit on the doorstep. They were always going to run a spoiling campaign against her, it was just a matter of how intense it would be.
     

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