Are "fucked up" people more likely to be religious?

[8ball]

Not all religiousity involves repression.

Apologies.

Satanism excepted.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I find its just the weak minded and those who need to believe in something comforting... Most of us are able to grow out of it, thankfully...!

Not necessarily. I've seen this phenomena of weak minded people being picked up by evangelical christian sects for example but I've also seen people inspired to do better by themselves and dedicate themselves to social justice because of their faith.

I've seen plenty of weak minded swappies who parrot the central committee line without thought so that this herd mentality isn't just a religious phenomena it is a secular thing as well.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Apologies.

Satanism excepted.

Some branches of Judaism Islam and Christianity are definitely not repressed especially in the area of sexuality.

Its a mistake to look at something like Leviticus or Romans and just take it as 'divinely written'. The Torah for example was divinely inspired but not dictated in my opinion. There is stuff in there that needs to be looked at in a historical and political context and needs to be re examined for the modern world.

If you look beyond the texts that is where the meat of the matter is.

 

[frogwoman]

Not all religiousity involves repression.

You're right, it doesn't My denomination certainly does not.

I do have to admit though, over the last few weeks I have been having serious doubts, not over the fact that I think its harmful as I think it's helped me alot over the years and given me a lot of strength, I dont think its harmful at all, it's just that I cant help thinking that if G-d is all good etc then why the hell does he make good people, suffer for no reason, and im not talking about me, im talking about stuff like my friend's mum who died of cancer, who was one of the most amazing people I have ever come across, why do people get ill when theyve not done anything wrong? If he really is an all loving powerful being then why would he invent things like cancer and give them to people who don't deserve it?

I'd be grateful if someone could help me with this because Im having serious issues about religion at the moment, I don't want to stop believing in G-d because it has really helped me over the years, but if anyone can give me a proper explanation of this I'd be really grateful. I am having SERIOUS doubts about whether G-d and religion is real or not and whether I can carry on believing in something which isn't making any kind of sense to me at the moment. I'm sure it will make sense to me again at some point but it doesn't at the moment and I need someone to give an explanation to me I can be comfortable with, i mean why the fuck, for instance, do people get alzheimer's disease, or parkinson's disease, what the fuck is that all about, my friend's grandma has been suffering for like 20 years with these conditions, and it seems a bit awful, and a bit wrong, to talk about an all loving g-d when this has happened for no reason at all you know? This is really difficult for me to write tbh, because I have always viewed G-d as what got me through some most difficult times, but I am having real trouble sustaining my belief in him, real trouble, and I don't know what the hell to do, if anyone can give me a justification of his existence I'd be so grateful.

And I don't want people to start coming on and saying "oh i told you so" blah blah blah, I just need to get this out because it's just been one of the things which has been bothering me, I'm finding it really hard to believe that G-d is a benevolent being any more.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You're right, it doesn't My denomination certainly does not.

I do have to admit though, over the last few weeks I have been having serious doubts, not over the fact that I think its harmful as I think it's helped me alot over the years and given me a lot of strength, I dont think its harmful at all, it's just that I cant help thinking that if G-d is all good etc then why the hell does he make good people, suffer for no reason, and im not talking about me, im talking about stuff like my friend's mum who died of cancer, who was one of the most amazing people I have ever come across, why do people get ill when theyve not done anything wrong? If he really is an all loving powerful being then why would he invent things like cancer and give them to people who don't deserve it?

I'd be grateful if someone could help me with this because Im having serious issues about religion at the moment, I don't want to stop believing in G-d because it has really helped me over the years, but if anyone can give me a proper explanation of this I'd be really grateful. I am having SERIOUS doubts about whether G-d and religion is real or not and whether I can carry on believing in something which isn't making any kind of sense to me at the moment. I'm sure it will make sense to me again at some point but it doesn't at the moment and I need someone to give an explanation to me I can be comfortable with, i mean why the fuck, for instance, do people get alzheimer's disease, or parkinson's disease, what the fuck is that all about, my friend's grandma has been suffering for like 20 years with these conditions, and it seems a bit awful, and a bit wrong, to talk about an all loving g-d when this has happened for no reason at all you know? This is really difficult for me to write tbh, because I have always viewed G-d as what got me through some most difficult times, but I am having real trouble sustaining my belief in him, real trouble, and I don't know what the hell to do, if anyone can give me a justification of his existence I'd be so grateful.

And I don't want people to start coming on and saying "oh i told you so" blah blah blah, I just need to get this out because it's just been one of the things which has been bothering me, I'm finding it really hard to believe that G-d is a benevolent being any more.

I can really see where you are coming from. You are not alone in this. I think it is natural when you have a faith to go 'why, why why' when bad things happen to good people. Things like illnesses appear random and appear to be dished out without any thought of justice but they are not. IMHO g-d is mostly bound by the physical laws of the universe and these physical laws determine whether someones genes are fucked up which makes them suseptible to cancers etc, or like my uncle they did a months stint 40 years ago in an asbestos factory which later killed him etc etc.

Sometimes its helpful to look at G-d as a parent and no parent can totally control the actions of their child as well as being impossible it would be morally wrong. We were given free will but that doesn't mean that what happens to us is totally under our control sometimes what happens to us is under the control of other humans or just genuine randomness.

I've seen this abandonment in the face of adversity when a friends dad abandon his religious belief later in life after he survived The Shoah as a child he believed that no loving deity would let such a thing happen.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

Not all religiousity involves repression.

I'd argue against that statement, but it wouldn't be on topic.

 

[iguzza]

In many ways a belief in God seems incredibly paranoid but because these Gods are supposedly loving it's not termed as paranoia, and yet masses of people believe the same thing,

it does prove how susceptible the human mind is to believing things that aren't provable tho, the early christian missionaries for example would probably be very successful salesmen today

 

[frogwoman]

but why? I mean I can totaly see where you're coming from but G-d is meant to be the creator of the universe, if there are things in the universe he cannot control then why does he exist? Like what is the point of his existing if he cant control anything? I dont want to not believe in him any more but its just why? why do bad things happen to good people? I can understand, the whole concept of free will and how evil people need to have free will as well as good people, Its not that i have a problem with, it's why people get illnesses, its why cancer was created, i mean why would an all loving being create something like cancer as well as all the other things in nature? Why? I dont know what to do any more, I mean I pray and stuff but it feels like its not real any more, like its not the faith that i once had, and i know i can say "oh im going through a hard time having all these doubts and before long I will believe in G-d again" but I dont know if I will? And you can say "oh well these things were made so that human beings can overcome them" but is it actually worth it, is it worth all the suffering? Why did G-d make people die so young so there is no way for people to get rid of their illnesses, my friend's mum died of cancer at 33 and it was so rapid that it was not even detected? Why does G-d make people depressed for absolutely no reason so they commit suicide, for no other reason apart from depression and nobody has done anything to them to make them depressed, what is the fucking point? If G-d stopped me from killing myself what about all the other people who he didn't stop, why did he not save them, he could have done it and yet he didn't?? And if he is really all powerful why cant he control all this random stuff that happens, he is meant to be G-d, he is meant to be able to control everything

there have been times over the last month that i have REALLY hated him you know, like seriously hated him, in reality, and I dont want to hate him at all I want to have the belief that I once had but I dont know how i can regain it at all, I don't know how I can believe in G-d when it just seems so unlikely at the moment

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Froggy, relax.

It's an issue that makes a massive difference to your life, trying to solve it in an afternoon is just going to make your head explode. Talk to your rabi about it, that's what they are there for.

It sounds to me like you've lost your blind faith, where you knew there's a reason for all the shit in the world, you merely have to find it, and as such didn't really bother (like i haven't bothered looking up the proof of E=MC^2). Now it's a full on crisis of faith as you lose that basic premise, that there is a god and you find you don't have the reasons to hand that would lead you to the same conclusion, ie. that there is a god and reasons for all the shit. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just that you haven't needed them before.

I believe that the only logical conclusion is that god is either not real, or completely illogical. But it's something you'll have to work out on your own. Call your Rabi.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

but why? I mean I can totaly see where you're coming from but G-d is meant to be the creator of the universe, if there are things in the universe he cannot control then why does he exist?

Thats a big question. I've found an analogy in my own life. I used to be a photographer. Although I could create images once they got to the customer I had either no control or very limited control over the images. Sometimes there is a difference between the power to create and the use to what the creation is put.

Like what is the point of his existing if he cant control anything? I dont want to not believe in him any more but its just why? why do bad things happen to good people?

Sometimes bad things happen to good people not becuase of any evil intent from g-d but because shit happens. Somethings you can put a 'blame' on for example someone who goes bad because of their family background etc but as I said a lot of stuff that happens is just random.

I can understand, the whole concept of free will and how evil people need to have free will as well as good people,

Aha yes. The choice between the Yetzer Ra and the Yetzer Tov the good or bad forces. Its not just a choice that good or evil people have its a choice we all have to chose which path and sometimes we move between the two paths.

Its not that i have a problem with, it's why people get illnesses, its why cancer was created, i mean why would an all loving being create something like cancer as well as all the other things in nature?

Again a biggie. Did g-d create cancer etc or is / are illnesses etc an essential part of life to teach us about life or part of the natural order of things like birth and death. I know I've had some experiences in my life that have made me want to end it but I've come through as a stronger and IMO better person.

Why? I dont know what to do any more, I mean I pray and stuff but it feels like its not real any more, like its not the faith that i once had, and i know i can say "oh im going through a hard time having all these doubts and before long I will believe in G-d again" but I dont know if I will? And you can say "oh well these things were made so that human beings can overcome them" but is it actually worth it, is it worth all the suffering? Why did G-d make people die so young so there is no way for people to get rid of their illnesses, my friend's mum died of cancer at 33 and it was so rapid that it was not even detected? Why does G-d make people depressed for absolutely no reason so they commit suicide, for no other reason apart from depression and nobody has done anything to them to make them depressed, what is the fucking point? If G-d stopped me from killing myself what about all the other people who he didn't stop, why did he not save them, he could have done it and yet he didn't?? And if he is really all powerful why cant he control all this random stuff that happens, he is meant to be G-d, he is meant to be able to control everything

That is the point G-d is not MEANT to control everything. G-d can guide but not control. He can give people experiences and backgrounds that make them want to be top class cancer doctors but He can't point at an individual persons aberant cells and go 'begone'.

there have been times over the last month that i have REALLY hated him you know, like seriously hated him, in reality, and I dont want to hate him at all I want to have the belief that I once had but I dont know how i can regain it at all, I don't know how I can believe in G-d when it just seems so unlikely at the moment

Sometimes you just have to step back and chill and re-evaluate and make up your own mind. Sometimes worrying about faith is like worrying about erection problems the more you worry the worse it gets. If I had let my very negative experiences with Christians affect me I would have had dismissed all faith and would have become as closed minded as they are and were and I wouldn't be on the wonderful path (for me that is I wouldn't dream of evangalising) that I'm on now.

 

[bluestreak]

right, i've got a lot to say about this... will answer later on.

 

[8ball]

I think what's causing a lot of the pain here - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that you're trying to incorporate all of these questions into your current sense of your faith but you want that faith to remain unchanged. I have my own ambivalence about religious faith and it's effects but don't want to 'preach' here as that's never productive.

That said, I think you need to always leave some 'wiggle room' in your beliefs and feelings to allow them to be changed by new information coming in. That which cannot bend will break.

This sense you have of everything falling apart is entirely normal and is actually healthy - it is the feeling of the meaning structure you've created being put under unbearable stress. Now, like an old house that needs some building work done, you need to make some amendments to the structure so that it can remain habitable.

Everyone goes through these points in their life and they're always frightening - the only ways of handling them are to avoid all new information at all costs (the Arthur Dent solution, and very common), create delusional and magical beliefs to protect the existing structure from change (the George W. Bush solution, and the least wise because in the long term it results in inevitable corruption of meaning structure and often the death of the self or others with it), or to make some changes to the structure and take full responsibility for whatever that brings.

Good luck

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think what's causing a lot of the pain here - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that you're trying to incorporate all of these questions into your current sense of your faith but you want that faith to remain unchanged. I have my own ambivalence about religious faith and it's effects but don't want to 'preach' here as that's never productive.

That said, I think you need to always leave some 'wiggle room' in your beliefs and feelings to allow them to be changed by new information coming in. That which cannot bend will break.

This sense you have of everything falling apart is entirely normal and is actually healthy - it is the feeling of the meaning structure you've created being put under unbearable stress. Now, like an old house that needs some building work done, you need to make some amendments to the structure so that it can remain habitable.

Everyone goes through these points in their life and they're always frightening - the only ways of handling them are to avoid all new information at all costs (the Arthur Dent solution, and very common), create delusional and magical beliefs to protect the existing structure from change (the George W. Bush solution, and the least wise because in the long term it results in inevitable corruption of meaning structure and often the death of the self or others with it), or to make some changes to the structure and take full responsibility for whatever that brings.

Good luck

Good post.

 

[fela fan]

If he really is an all loving powerful being then why would he invent things like cancer and give them to people who don't deserve it?

Frog, there is a god, but not the one you've been believing in.

There is religion, and most religions talk of this all-knowing, all-seeing supreme being, that has developed human-like qualities, purely because it's humans doing the thinking/rationalising.

Then there is religiousness, and no big man in the sky who does only good. With religiousness, god is nature, god is you, me, every single person. God is life itself. Take your pick!

I have personally never followed any religion, and never really knock any of them. But i do have religiousness in me. The former is individuals giving themselves over to a mass. Faith and beliefs are the outcome. The latter is the individual accepting and enjoying their individuality, and always maintaining their right to be an individual. The outcome is a wonderful wonderful sense of freedom, the very thing that religions purport to give us, even if not until we have died. In individuality, harming others, harming life of any sort, is harming our own self. It does not happen.

Organised religions are about giving away your right to be individual, to be alone (i don't mean lonely here) when you choose.

Religiousness is about staking your rightful claim to be an individual. I've done that, and i cannot tell you how much pleasure and spiritual balance i get from looking at, listening to, feeling, and smelling nature. For me there is no god other than nature, the natural world.

The natural world beats anything that humans have organised amongst themselves!

I would say you have to drop the God you've always believed in, you have to stop asking questions about why such lovely people get suffering or early deaths. Once you stop asking questions that have no answers, and simply accept, things will change. Swap faith and belief with acceptance, replace fight with accept. Then you will find the REAL god, not the human-constructed one.

 

[bluestreak]

well, here's when we throw another idea into the pot...

i don't think that religion appeals to the fucked up any more or less than any other group. the reasons people are religious, IME, are numerous and varied. there are plenty of fucked up atheists, believe!

however, like all things, your particular breed of "fucked-upness" will influence your responses to religion and belief.

for me, it was much the same thoughts that killed off religion in my head - i couldn't reconcile the world in which we live in with the teachings of the character of god. the 'unknowable plan' stuff didn't make sense. no-one could answer my questions, the religious didn't lead religious lives, it was the religious version of people who say "it just is" or "because i said so". and gradually the answers lay not in religion but in action, in living, in seeking to answer the questions myself and not to look for answers in ancient books or the brainwashed utterances of hypocrites.

 

[lobster]

I have met and heard of religious people who have a life like non religious or to put it a different way nothing different about there life.

To a lot of religious people, religion is a spiritual forward thinking solution as well as confidence boost in that there living for something.

And there are atheist who think the same in that science is something to live for and witness.

 

[Aldebaran]

I was born seriously "fucked up"... This thread makes me think... Maybe I was a religious foetus.

salaam.

 

[Red Horse]

I think its definitely more likely that if you all your wordly needs are taken care of; ie; you have/had a stable home life, positive self-image, physical/mental well-being etc. etc. you are going to be less likely to explore religion. Obviously thats a fucking big generalisation. But all the people i know who have good self-images, professionally successful, are physically attractive etc. have never considered religion seriously.

 

[Red Horse]

...they are too busy getting laid and generally enjoying themselves (in a wordly/ wholly sensualistic fashion of course)

 

[Aldebaran]

I think its definitely more likely that if you all your wordly needs are taken care of; ie; you have/had a stable home life, positive self-image, physical/mental well-being etc. etc. you are going to be less likely to explore religion. Obviously thats a fucking big generalisation. But all the people i know who have good self-images, professionally successful, are physically attractive etc. have considered religion seriously.

I don't see any evidence for that. My whole family (both sides) can fit that description and they all are religious.

salaam.

 

[story]

When I was fucked up, I was anti-religion and anti-religious. I hated all forms of authority, and mistrusted all ideas that hadn't come directly from my own experience and reasoning. I had no experience of the Sacred, the numinous, of anything that was outside of myself (other than the behaviour of people).

Now I'm not fucked up, I suppose that I'm religious... although I would resist that label cos I don't adhere to any book-based religion.

Now that I'm happy and well, I'm more aware of Spirit, and more actively conscious of it's affects in my life. When I was unhappy and fucked up, I had no awareness or understanding of Spirit at all; I rejected the very concept of God. I now believe that was a mistaken and shortsighted mindset.

 

[dash]

Atheists are probably more neurotic than the religious.

But the religious are probably more psychotic than the atheists.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

When I was fucked up, I was anti-religion and anti-religious. I hated all forms of authority, and mistrusted all ideas that hadn't come directly from my own experience and reasoning. I had no experience of the Sacred, the numinous, of anything that was outside of myself (other than the behaviour of people).

Now I'm not fucked up, I suppose that I'm religious... although I would resist that label cos I don't adhere to any book-based religion.

Now that I'm happy and well, I'm more aware of Spirit, and more actively conscious of it's affects in my life. When I was unhappy and fucked up, I had no awareness or understanding of Spirit at all; I rejected the very concept of God. I now believe that was a mistaken and shortsighted mindset.

i'm in a really bad mood so i'm having trouble distinguishing whether or not this is in fact an incredibly annoying post

 

[ska invita]

Are "fucked up" people more likely to be religious?

I think "religious" people are more likely to end up fucked up.

Some kind of holy vicious circle...

Atheists are probably more neurotic than the religious.

But the religious are probably more psychotic than the atheists.

That rings true...

 

[story]

i'm in a really bad mood so i'm having trouble distinguishing whether or not this is in fact an incredibly annoying post

well let me know when you've worked it out.... It wasn't intended to be annoying.

 

[Jonti]

you certainly need a brain that shuts down all rational thought and keeps telling itself that what it believes is the one and only truth .and i think the longer your brain keeps this up the more "fucked-up" you'll get.

last month a friend of mine ( she is a christian) rang me and said that she needed to see me urgently and that something awful had happened.
So i rushed to meet her in a bar , where she told me she had a dream about me. i was naked and covered in shit this means that i am naked before God and do not hear his word , my soul will be lost etc.etc.

i always really liked her but this episode made me think she's gone nuts !!!!

Understandably!

To my mind, this story shows how damaging religion can be to a person

Does she really think that that Almighty Gawd chose to show *her* a scatological dream in order to try to save *your* soul?! Ffs!! If it's of concern to Almighty Gawd, why should he not just drop a heap of elephant dung on you out of the blue (say, while you're shopping in Tescos), play a fanfair of trumpets, and thunder "BlackSpecs, believe in ME or you shall surely DIE. Mwahahahahaha!! Mwahaha!!!"

I'd find that more conclusive evidence of divine concern than your friend's scatological fantasies ...

 

[iguzza]

Exactly but god has never done anything like that as far as we know.... and I for one have never seen him looking down at us

 

[Jonti]

Kind of reminds me of the idiotic story told about Moses and the Pharaoh. The Almighty Gawd can't just appear in front of the Pharaoh, slap him round the head a tad and bellow "Let my people go, you nasty old King-thing!!".

Oh! no!! That's far too straightforward. Almighty Gawd has to give the Pharaoh some weird dreams which Moses then has to interpret.

S'obvious rubbish, innit?

 

[Aldebaran]

Jonti, I think you are the right person to come up with a sequel on "Life of Brian". Or better said, a "Before Brian".

salaam.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

well let me know when you've worked it out.... It wasn't intended to be annoying.

i think it was 99% me .... but on the face of it, it could sort of look like you're saying that non-religious feeling = fuckedupness and you're "better now".

that's fine if you were only talking about you and your personal experience, but I don't think it necessarily applies to anyone else at all. In fact, I could write a post very similar to yours but reversed. Except I'm still a bit fucked-up.