Are degrees worthless now?

[seeformiles]

Given the fact that the world and his wife has a Degree, it's replaced A-levels in terms of value to employers. Similarly, the MA is the new degree. I certainly didn't need my degree to do my job but they ask for it because they can!

 

[nino_savatte]

if ya get a degree in a bleedin' worthwhile area such as accounting or computers or engineering then its a great asset. on the other hand if you get a degree in philosophy or psychology or art history then it will most likely be worthless.

That's a very narrow way to veiw education. In other words, if it is of no use to industry, then it is worthless or if it doesn't fit into the classical understanding of education, then it is worthless.

 

[Detroit City]

That's a very narrow way to veiw education. In other words, if it is of no use to industry, then it is worthless or if it doesn't fit into the classical understanding of education, then it is worthless.

we all have to eat and have a roof over our heads

 

[nino_savatte]

we all have to eat and have a roof over our heads

No shit, but education should not be limited to what it can do for one's employment prospects. The Spaniards, for example, have a very healthy attitude to learning and many Spaniards will take a degree just to learn something; to expand the mind. In English speaking countries, one learns in order to serve industry (or at least that is the message put across by the state). If one should desire to learn for the sake of it, it is then seen as either "worthless" or "pointless" and woe betide anyone who takes a degree in Media Studies, they just end up as the butt of ignorant jokes.

 

[PursuedByBears]

I work as a university administrator and needed a degree for my job. If you want to work at a university in admin as anything other that a filing clerk you need to have a degree or the academics won't take you seriously.

I think there's a lot to be said for education for it's own sake too - the opportunity to spend 3 years studying something you're really interested in is not to be underestimated. Uni also gives the opportunity to spend whole days at a time pissed/stoned out of your head*

*Mind you, I did get a full grant, might not be an option these days

 

[_angel_]

No degrees are not worthless, average debt is around £30000 or something stupid isn't it?

I was lucky to do mine in the era of grants.. I dunno if I'd be able to afford to do one now if I was eighteen.

Like someone said they seem to have replaced A levels as an entry requirement in a lot of jobs.

 

[London_Calling]

if ya get a degree in a bleedin' worthwhile area such as accounting or computers or engineering then its a great asset. on the other hand if you get a degree in philosophy or psychology or art history then it will most likely be worthless.

How the fuck can teaching your mind critical thinking, analysis and all the other mental skills you pick up while studying any subject at an advanced level be "worthless"?

It isn't just or only about about the 'vocation' in a course, a Degree is primarily about learning to think independently, assimilating and processing large quantities of information and then using that information well.

Surely most people understand this ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

How the fuck can teaching your mind critical thinking, analysis and all the other mental skills you pick up while studying any subject at an advanced level be "worthless"?

It isn't just or only about about the 'vocation' in a course, a Degree is primarily about learning to think independently, assimilating and processing large quantities of information and then using that information well.

Surely most people understand this ?

The problem is that Mr. City seems to be looking at higher ed from an instrumental perspective, in that it appears he's only concerned about how it affects earning power.

Forunately, most people take the wider view you've espoused above.

 

[madboy23]

Worth it if you are interested in the subject and hope to widen your knowledge, not so sure about carreerwise now, but hey who wants a career anyway. Cant take a career with you when you die.

Mike

 

[nosos]

How the fuck can teaching your mind critical thinking, analysis and all the other mental skills you pick up while studying any subject at an advanced level be "worthless"?

It isn't just or only about about the 'vocation' in a course, a Degree is primarily about learning to think independently, assimilating and processing large quantities of information and then using that information well.

Surely most people understand this ?

Most philosophy students do

 

[starfish2000]

I got a 2:1 from Luton University, Now University of Bedfordshire in 1999 and a 1st for my degree show/dissertation peice. I did an access course and went as a mature student. It took 4 years of my life.

8 years later, all it has done for me was to give me was massive debts, massive lowering of my self esteem suicidal depression and eventual Bankruptcy. My lifes turned a corner now, but the job I do doesn't require a degree.

There are too many graduates, if only 35% of the population earn over the national average salary why educate 60% (mature students included here) to degree level. You just get the rest feeling worthless and wondering why the fuck they bothered.

However a large skint student population stimulates the service economy and means you don't have to worry paying holiday, stamp & sick pay, so the real winners are the wankers at the CBI, also the banks have been winners with more students. which is I suspect the real reason for University expansion in the first place.

 

[jusali]

There are too many graduates, if only 35% of the population earn over the national average salary why educate 60% (mature students included here) to degree level. You just get the rest feeling worthless and wondering why the fuck they bothered.

However a large skint student population stimulates the service economy and means you don't have to worry paying holiday, stamp & sick pay, so the real winners are the wankers at the CBI, also the banks have been winners with more students. which is I suspect the real reason for University expansion in the first place.

Cynical but true I'm afraid.

I know what you feel about the feeling worthless!
At school you think you're good at a subject but when you get to Uni you realise you're maybe not as good as you first thought.
I did a design degree that was based on a formulaic principle and involved a series of hoops to jump through creativity was stifled and the design teaching was intended for mass production/marketing, no room for artistic or exploratative design there, I got a 2:2 and ended up hating the concept of "Fordian" design and out of work for a good year or so. We didn't use a computer in 3 yrs!
Needless to say I really regret my degree

 

[innana]

In response to the OP's questions:

I'm the Chief Exec of a voluntary sector organisation and I don't have a degree. I earn more than my partner, a mental health social worker with an MA and post-qualifying qualifications. I have never found my lack of a degree to be a barrier; I have gained post-graduate level qualifications through the OU, who did not require a degree and these studies were not a requirement for my post, but something that I just wanted to do.

Whenever we recruit staff we never stipulate that a degree is either essential or desirable; our recruitment process is values-based and we look at experience (both paid and unpaid) and attitude in much more detail than qualifications. I can't speak for the entire voluntary sector, but this way of recruiting is fairly prevalent. There is an organisation called "Working for a Charity" (www.wfac.org.uk) which may be useful.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[Kripcat]

woe betide anyone who takes a degree in Media Studies, they just end up as the butt of ignorant jokes.

I had a friend who was driven from Media Studies into Law.

 

[marty21]

Media Studies of the 00's is the Social Science of the 80's. In my experience most people do/did them because they couldn't get into a decent course or didn't really know what the fuck they wanted to do.

oi says a social science graduate of the 80s

tbh when i was 18 and applying to university I didn't have a clue what i wanted to do with my life

and at 42 i'm still not positive

 

[_angel_]

woe betide anyone who takes a degree in Media Studies, they just end up as the butt of ignorant jokes.

A forum I sort of have for a comedian is full of young lasses saying they have to write essays on sitcoms for media studies. Pardon me if I don't quite see the point.


Do you teach media studies?

 

[marty21]

and woe betide anyone who takes a degree in Media Studies, they just end up as the butt of ignorant jokes.

surely the meeja needs these people, otherwise it would just grind to a halt

 

[ViolentPanda]

A forum I sort of have for a comedian is full of young lasses saying they have to write essays on sitcoms for media studies. Pardon me if I don't quite see the point.

It's not so much about the "essay on a sitcom" per se as showing you can write an essay and are capable of analysing content and context. Some people kind of miss that in the rush to judgement, IMHO.
Personally I reckon a Media Studies degree is fine as a springboard to specialisation, it's just too "broad-brush" for my personal tastes as a first degree.

 

[ViolentPanda]

surely the meeja needs these people, otherwise it would just grind to a halt

Except, of course, that employment in "the meeja" is still as much about who you know, as what you know, especially in these days of very limited opportunities for people to get "apprenticeships" (with pay) rather than "internships" (without pay) in the industry.

 

[butchersapron]

Except, of course, that employment in "the meeja" is still as much about who you know, as what you know, especially in these days of very limited opportunities for people to get "apprenticeships" (with pay) rather than "internships" (without pay) in the industry.

Too right:

"Over half (54%) of the country's leading news journalists were educated in private schools - which account for just 7% of the school population [...] and just 14% attended comprehensives schools, which now educate almost 90% of children.

The survey also reveals that of the 81% of the leading journalists in 2006 who had been to university, over half were educated at Oxbridge, including a third who went to one institution, Oxford."

Summary: http://www.suttontrust.com/news.asp#a027
Full report: http://www.suttontrust.com/reports/Journalists-backgrounds-final-report.pdf

 

[EastEnder]

"Are degrees worthless now?"

The question is too simplistic. How do you define "worth"?

As a means of broadening ones academic knowledge, experiencing a different environment, meeting a wide variety of people, etc, they're as worthwhile as you make them, dependent on which subject you study, how much commitment & enthusiasm you have, etc.

As a means of improving ones job prospects, earning potential, etc, the answer is less clear. If you want to become a lawyer, you need a degree. If you want to be a train driver, you don't (purely in terms of getting the job, that is). For many other jobs having a degree is either a nice extra, a tacit prerequisite, or more often these days, simply a tool to make you look more appealing to employers than the other, degreeless, guy.

When I did my bachelors, grants were being phased out but tuition fees hadn't been brought in yet. The maximum student loan I could take out in first year was 700 quid - it was pegged at a level deemed necessary to supplement the dwindling grants. The idea of leaving uni 30K in debt was unheard of. If I were contemplating starting a degree now, knowing what I do about their true worth in the job market, coupled with the attendant spiraling debt, I seriously doubt I'd bother...

 

[lobster]

Too right:

"Over half (54%) of the country's leading news journalists were educated in private schools - which account for just 7% of the school population [...] and just 14% attended comprehensives schools, which now educate almost 90% of children.

The survey also reveals that of the 81% of the leading journalists in 2006 who had been to university, over half were educated at Oxbridge, including a third who went to one institution, Oxford."

Summary: http://www.suttontrust.com/news.asp#a027
Full report: http://www.suttontrust.com/reports/Journalists-backgrounds-final-report.pdf

As you happen to bring up Oxford...another question could be asked, Are degrees from universities lesser known worthless now?

 

[nino_savatte]

Except, of course, that employment in "the meeja" is still as much about who you know, as what you know, especially in these days of very limited opportunities for people to get "apprenticeships" (with pay) rather than "internships" (without pay) in the industry.

Exactly and if you've been to Oxbridge, you've got your key to the BBC door. It doesn't matter how talentless or clueless you are or whether you got a 3rd in your degree, there's always someone from your Alma Mater who will give you a leg up.

 

[nino_savatte]

surely the meeja needs these people, otherwise it would just grind to a halt

I think a distinction needs to be made between Media Studies and Media Production. The former subject equips people to read the media and to understand how it functions. The latter trains people for work in the industry.

Many students will take Media Studies thinking that they're going to be trained for a job in the industry and while there is some production work, it exists to show one how digital editing, for example, can be sued to manipulate people's emotions.

 

[nino_savatte]

Do you teach media studies?

Having a dig, are you? You know, you're just the same as many other people who see Media Studies as some sort of joke. Had you been around in the 70's you'd have said the same thing about Sociology.

Only folk who have no idea about the subject would suggest that students sit and write essays on sitcoms.

 

[_angel_]

Having a dig, are you? You know, you're just the same as many other people who see Media Studies as some sort of joke. Had you been around in the 70's you'd have said the same thing about Sociology.

Only folk who have no idea about the subject would suggest that students sit and write essays on sitcoms.

Well, the lasses on my site do actually..I don't know if that's GCSE or A level though.

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, the lasses on my site do actually..I don't know if that's GCSE or A level though.

That sounds like one assignment that has been taken in isolation from all of the others.

Students also have to deconstruct images in advertising; explore the regulatory bodies and learn about such things as censorship and control of the media and examine issues of representation in the media.

There's more to Media Studies than watching telly or films.

 

[London_Calling]

I got a 2:1 from Luton University, Now University of Bedfordshire in 1999 and a 1st for my degree show/dissertation peice. I did an access course and went as a mature student. It took 4 years of my life.

8 years later, all it has done for me was to give me was massive debts, massive lowering of my self esteem suicidal depression and eventual Bankruptcy. My lifes turned a corner now, but the job I do doesn't require a degree.

There are too many graduates, if only 35% of the population earn over the national average salary why educate 60% (mature students included here) to degree level. You just get the rest feeling worthless and wondering why the fuck they bothered.

I know, it's frankly shocking that there should be competition for jobs after a Degree.

It's also important to blame seemingly all of life's woe's on education.

 

[chio]

We need media studies graduates to... erm... sorry, lost my train of thought there. (I did write essays on sitcoms when I did the A-level. From speaking to people who are doing the degree course at our place, they do still do an awful lot of that kind of stuff in amongst the more academic work.)

I'm highly cynical of the whole university "industry". I'm sure I've posted this up before, but it makes me worry a little when I hear radio adverts that tell you how the University of Wythenshawe or some other godforsaken northern town is the "best party in town", you'll "have the time of your life" and to "enrol now to get a free iPod" or something. It's a third-rate university, not a fucking youth club. I'm not convinced it's a conspiracy as such, but I do raise an eyebrow when I hear that they want 50-60% of the population to be graduates with the debt etc that entails. I can certainly envisage a backlash a generation or so from mine; I honestly can't see the benefit to society as a whole of having an entire generation of not inconsiderably indebted young adults with iffy degrees from half-arsed universities.

All through the latter stages of high school and A-levels, students are sold this vision of a happy, well-paid future after university by "careers advisors" (whatever they actually are). The reality for most people I know is of leaving university and either heading straight into the service sector or ending up (particularly in the media) in unpaid internships for months on end. I've known a couple get into the BBC in entry-level short-term contract BA positions only to get spat out again six months later. I don't know anyone in recent years who's actually managed to land on their feet. Having said that, I've only ever known one Oxford graduate and she was in and out of service jobs for a year before she found a teaching job in her field!

I think a way forward could be to stop selling absolutely every post-18 institution as a university and stop selling absolutely every course as a degree. I don't know why so many employers demand graduates for work that'd be better off learned on the job. There are lots of "degrees" that'd be far better off as more vocational courses. There's absolutely no shame in vocational education yet it's often seen as somewhere the less bright people "end up".

 

[EastEnder]

I don't know why so many employers demand graduates for work that'd be better off learned on the job.

It's an inevitable consequence of an ever increasing proportion of applicants having degrees. When far fewer people were degree educated, only those employers who genuinely needed degree educated folk would demand them. Degrees were a bit "special", conveyed a certain kudos, made one stand out from the crowd and more often than not, allowed the possessor to command higher renumeration. Under such circumstances, no prudent employer would stipulate degree level education unless it was wholly warranted. Degrees are no longer special, they're practically de rigeur. When many, if not most, potential applicants have one, there's no reason for an employer not to require them, no matter how arbitrary it may seem. After all, if applicants A, B, & C have degrees, but applicant D doesn't, employers can use it is a trivial filtering mechanism - "they've all got degrees, why haven't you?...". Couple that with the ever decreasing renumeration bias of having a degree, and you end up with the situation where employers can demand all applicants are degree educated, yet avoid paying noticeably higher wages. It's a bit like having a mobile phone - back when they were scarce and only possessed by the lucky few, they were something special, a mark of distinction. When everyone's got one, they're about as special as a pocket calculator...