Are all BNP voters racist

[_angel_]

Well exactly, but if we talked to people to find out their concerns, in the best MacNiece theory, their perceptions may be so removed from the reality that the exercise would be of little use.

People do have genuine concerns about the state of their housing, schools, hospitals, but find no one to vote for who seems to speak for them. In the absence of an alternative, the BNP fill that vacuum by pretending to care about their concerns.

I do stress here the word pretending.

 

[Spion]

'
Engage.... produce.... solutions...difficulties...appeal... concerns'

Throw in a 'challenge' and a 'synergy' and I'd complete the bullshit bingo, consultation management edition. No disrespect, but that's exactly the language I'd use when putting together a consultation exercise for a housing provider.

LM may not want to agree, but finding out people's concerns is the easy thing. It's linking them to reality and genuine solutions that's the difficulty.

Spot on

It's not often I say this but all this "help[ing] them produce their own solutions to the difficulties" comes across as a classic middle class patronising attitude to the w/c. And to deny there is any agenda to that 'help', a sense of 'knowing better' is dishonest bullshit - all questions are based on assumptions and have a goal in mind.

Of course, the likes of Butch and LM always seem to know better when they argue with someone who already has some political experience. When that happens they're as dirty a pair of fighters as any Stalinist TU bureaucrat of old

In my world there are ideas, they compete, you fight for yours, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose - and you adapt if proven wrong.

 

[bluestreak]

you'd have to be a half-wit to not know what the BNP stand for. If you're not racist but you vote racist, to me that's racism enough.

 

[tarannau]

Engage.... produce.... solutions...difficulties...appeal... concerns

Buzzwords? That's one wide defintion if these normal everyday words are buzzwords.

Oh stop the blindness; it's the concentration of the words that's the issue, that propels that post into the realm between corporate and politico speak.

 

[butchersapron]

You may have your interests. However, yhey're wrong. You must have mine. Let me link you to reality.

 

[tbaldwin]

Spot on

It's not often I say this but all this "help[ing] them produce their own solutions to the difficulties" comes across as a classic middle class patronising attitude to the w/c. And to deny there is any agenda to that 'help', a sense of 'knowing better' is dishonest bullshit - all questions are based on assumptions and have a goal in mind.

Of course, the likes of Butch and LM always seem to know better when they argue with someone who already has some political experience. When that happens they're as dirty a pair of fighters as any Stalinist TU bureaucrat of old

In my world there are ideas, they compete, you fight for yours, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose - and you adapt if proven wrong.

Well i reckon there is a need to adapt then. Cos the far lefts arguements on immigration are not only unpopular but just plain wrong.

 

[_angel_]

you'd have to be a half-wit to not know what the BNP stand for. If you're not racist but you vote racist, to me that's racism enough.

Perplexingly, it would seem, some people really don't know. But then, a lot of people still think labour are left wing and the lib dems are even more left wing.
Lots of confused people out there!

 

[butchersapron]

Oh stop the blindness; it's the concentration of the words that's the issue, that propels that post into the realm between corporate and politico speak.

The concentration of everyday words. Like in this sentence?

 

[butchersapron]

In my world there are ideas, they compete, you fight for yours, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose - and you adapt if proven wrong.

So why are you arguing the same old TU/searchlight dross that's been proven wrong.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Probably yes, but they are still working class people and need to be appealed to with politics that has practical goals (more jobs, houses etc) that make the rich pay.

Or is that telling people what to do?

"...they are still working class people", are they?

Patronising, to say the least.

 

[butchersapron]

"...they are still working class people", are they?

Patronising, to say the least.

Hey, w/c people are politically owned by the left like spion. Didn't you read the manifesto?

 

[Spion]

"...they are still working class people", are they?

Patronising, to say the least.

Why is it patronising to suggest people can be working class and racist?

 

[butchersapron]

Let semantic games begin!

 

[Spion]

Hey, w/c people are politically owned by the left like spion. Didn't you read the manifesto?

It gets weirder by the minute

I'm loving your twists and turns on this

Great thread. Really shown all your hand-wringing hippy focus group bollocks for what it is

 

[tarannau]

The concentration of everyday words. Like in this sentence?

Wll if that sentence was talked of 'engaging with a consultative exercise to produce solutions for our concerns' then it would cross the line, yes.

 

[bluestreak]

Perplexingly, it would seem, some people really don't know. But then, a lot of people still think labour are left wing and the lib dems are even more left wing.
Lots of confused people out there!

Then we need to educate them. IME they generally won't listen, no matter what actual evidence you show them. Although once or twice a few internet gleaned stats have led to a concerned look on their face. Trouble is that the answers that one proposes aren't the quick fix simple answers the BNP (or indeed any politician) offers.

 

[butchersapron]

Wll if that sentence was talked of 'engaging with a consultative exercise to produce solutions for our concerns' then it would cross the line, yes.

However the one that you referred to didn't and showed no similiarities wirth such a sentence.

 

[_angel_]

Then we need to educate them. IME they generally won't listen, no matter what actual evidence you show them. Although once or twice a few internet gleaned stats have led to a concerned look on their face. Trouble is that the answers that one proposes aren't the quick fix simple answers the BNP (or indeed any politician) offers.

Who is this 'they' ?

 

[butchersapron]

It gets weirder by the minute

I'm loving your twists and turns on this

Great thread. Really shown all your hand-wringing hippy focus group bollocks for what it is

Or your own iron hand don't trust the w/c socialism for what it really is and always was.

 

[tarannau]

Perplexingly, it would seem, some people really don't know. But then, a lot of people still think labour are left wing and the lib dems are even more left wing.
Lots of confused people out there!

Nah, people pretend they don't know. Unlike MacNiece I strongly don't believe that the vast majority of people don't choose a poltical party based on a dry appraisal of one of two favourable policies. Most, I'd wager confidently, go on the figurehead (think Thatcher) and general direction of the party, in which case the rabble rousing 'we don't want immigration' (no discussion/logic necessary) approach is more than obvious.

 

[Spion]

Or your own iron hand don't trust the w/c socialism for what it really is and always was.

You're arguing against the voices in your head, pal.

 

[butchersapron]

50 more years! 50 more years!

 

[_angel_]

Nah, people pretend they don't know. Unlike MacNiece I strongly don't believe that the vast majority of people don't choose a poltical party based on a dry appraisal of one of two favourable policies. Most, I'd wager confidently, go on the figurehead (think Thatcher) and general direction of the party, in which case the rabble rousing 'we don't want immigration' (no discussion/logic necessary) approach is more than obvious.

Some people are suckered in. I do remember reading somewhere something about a BNP councillor who didn't know their policies (she wasn't political but all the same) to her credit when she found out she dumped them.

Also, when they have campaigned locally around here, at least their leaflets have been all touchy-feely about supporting and saving the local special school - nothing about immigration.

Of course this isn't what they're about, they are a racist party. They are exploiting some people's concern about immigration without being honest about their motives generally.

They try and make out they are the friend of working class people on estates like this but really, they are more interested in chasing the middle class 'respectable' vote.

 

[bluestreak]

Who is this 'they' ?

People who have expressed a support for or desire to vote BNP in my presence over the years that I have gotten into conversations with. I generally try and engage with them, especially those in the workplace where I have access to the internet and can attempt to show them that there are other solutions then voting BNP or that things aren't as they think it is - for example when people sit there and talk about crime rates, or council house priority being given to immigrants etc.

Who did you think this 'they' was, this is a thread about people who vote BNP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are all BNP voters racist?

No, in my own experience a minority of them are nationalist/ultra-nationalist and xenophobic, and are able to articulate that position without reference to irrational prejudice (that isn't to say that I don't find such viewpoints personally repulsive, but they're at least somewhat more reasoned and nuanced than the bonehead "I hate coons, pakis and yids" stereotype.

...And should they then just be fucked off out of it?

In certain situations they should, IMO.

Ignored. Politically what is the approach?

My own view is that they shouldn't be denied a platform. They should be allowed to live or die by their policies. "No platform" almost guarantees them receiving at least a part of any right-wing "protest vote".

Who are BNP voters anyway?

Beyond the hardcore, they're anyone who feels disenfranchised enough from any other political ideology that they'll vote BNP.

 

[Spion]

50 more years! 50 more years!

And so, unable to debate like an adult human, Butchers retreated under his stone, flinging out cryptic insults. Pathetic

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hey, w/c people are politically owned by the left like spion. Didn't you read the manifesto?

Yes, but they're full of lies, so I don't tend to set much store by them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why is it patronising to suggest people can be working class and racist?

I wouldn't know. After all, that's not what I'm claiming is patronising.

What I saw as patronising was your instant assumption (with reference to ba's opening post) that "All BNP voters" must be working class (as evidenced by your reply to the OP that "...they are still working class people...", no qualification, no provisos.

 

[Spion]

I wouldn't know. After all, that's not what I'm claiming is patronising.

What I saw as patronising was your instant assumption (with reference to ba's opening post) that "All BNP voters" must be working class (as evidenced by your reply to the OP that "...they are still working class people...", no qualification, no provisos.

Why would I be interested in the m/c ones? Why would BA?

And tbh I can't think of any areas I know round here with BNP councillors I'd describe as m/c. Do any m/c BNP-voting wards spring to mind for you?

You're seeing what you want to see, I fear

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why would I be interested in the m/c ones? Why would BA?

If you don't know, it isn't my place to tell you, is it?

And tbh I can't think of any areas I know round here with BNP councillors I'd describe as m/c. Do any m/c BNP-voting wards spring to mind for you?

No, but the recent attempts in a middle-class Sussex town by the BNP to get on the parish council indicates that their message has penetrated beyond w/c areas.
It's also well-established (by his friends and enemies alike) that Griffin would love to shake off the "yobbo" tag the BNP has, and get a little "m/c respectability" (whatever that is).

You're seeing what you want to see, I fear

Alternately, I could say to you that there are none so blind as those that cannot see...