Are all BNP voters racist

[Spion]

Are those postions the needs of the local w/c or not?

What would you do?

I'd say I don't think that the shortage of council housing/jobs is the fault of immigrants, that successive govts and councils have sold them off, and that to get out the problem without creating racial strife we need community and workplace action and campaigns of that on a national scale to force the rich to pay for jobs and houses etc etc

I'd be surprised if that's really news to you, tbh, Butth

 

[Spion]

A marvellous amount of faith in the w/c being shown by the socialist judge here. So the answer is, from a socialist, that control shoule be placed in more capable hands? Not in the community, just in case...

read what i say rather than letting your dumb prejudices rule you for once, eh?

 

[tarannau]

Anyone who tried to say that with a straight face here would be laughed out of the building. The estate is about 98% white.

And has that stopped beliefs, perpetuated by the likes of Baldwin and others, that Poles (for example) are taking a disproportionate amount of counicl housing, no matter what the reality?

 

[butchersapron]

read what i say rather than letting your dumb prejudices rule you for once, eh?

Well, you first assumption is not about w/ commuinities coming together in collective action and spread the postive message, but about how they're likely to turn on each other in a a festivela of racial exclusion. What am i supposed to think. Such stuff from a socialist too!

 

[cliche guevara]

I suppose that if you took things that you read in the papers as gospel, then you might think that this country has a problem with immigration. And if you take what the BNP say as gospel, that this problem could easily be solved by their hardline approach to immigration, then it may be quite easy to fall into their trap. But then again, if you honestly think that immigration is a big problem, then you're already judging people by a group, which is halfway to racism anyway.

 

[tbaldwin]

No, but a hefty, hefty proportion are. I'd go as far as saying that nearly every voter for the BNP will have some kind of racist tendencies, whether or not overt or admitted to.

My direct experience is that those claiming not to be racist when voting BNP are the same types that come up with phrases like 'I'm not racist, but I don't like them Paki shops'. What's clear, after years of running pubs in areas with once heavy BNP presences, is that people can quickly dehumanise other groups. I was amazed at the racist twaddle that people would come out with in front of me - backtracking quickly and claiming me as one of their own, or somehow different from the other 'darkies' by virtue of speaking to me and knowing me. It's a weird 'them' and 'us' dynamic.

You have to be a certain sort of person to even consider voting BNP. And, as much slack as I could cut them, there are nearly always backward or divisive views of other cultures at the root of the decision.

Think your point about people dehumanising other groups is interesting.
Thats why i think there is a problem with people refeering to themselves as 'anti racists'
If i think back to people in my own family or friends who expressed very racist views. I was not anti them but i was anti the racism.
I think calling yourself anti racist is a bit misguided.

 

[_angel_]

And has that stopped beliefs, perpetuated by the likes of Baldwin and others, that Poles (for example) are taking a disproportionate amount of counicl housing, no matter what the reality?

You're asking what I would say: I would point out in my experience most council housing seems to go to inigenous whites, so the idea the it's all being taken by foreigners is untrue.

 

[Spion]

Well, you first assumption is not about w/ commuinities coming together in collective action and spread the postive message!

It's a discussion about the BNP gaining foothold in w/c areas is it not? Am I supposed to instantly imagine 'communities coming together in collective action'?

So fucking dishonest

 

[tbaldwin]

I suppose that if you took things that you read in the papers as gospel, then you might think that this country has a problem with immigration. And if you take what the BNP say as gospel, that this problem could easily be solved by their hardline approach to immigration, then it may be quite easy to fall into their trap. But then again, if you honestly think that immigration is a big problem, then you're already judging people by a group, which is halfway to racism anyway.

Sorry but that really is an ignorant load of nonsense.

I think Immigration is a huge problem not only for this country but for the countries who are losing the skilled workers they most need.
And in your book that makes me a racist......Tell you what throw away that stooopid book and go down the library and do some further reading.....

 

[butchersapron]

I'd say I don't think that the shortage of council housing/jobs is the fault of immigrants, that successive govts and councils have sold them off, and that to get out the problem without creating racial strife we need community and workplace action and campaigns of that on a national scale to force the rich to pay for jobs and houses etc etc

I'd be surprised if that's really news to you, tbh, Butth

Wow, you'd do exactly what people like me would when faced with your strawman - yet somehow your position is that much nobler and more socialist.

I oppose stikes, why? because of enoch's dockers.

 

[tarannau]

The BNP is a racist party, but it isn't just racist. Therefore it doesn't follow that you have to be a racist to vote for them. If you want to engage with people in order to help them produce their own solutions to the difficulties which face them, then you need to start by talking with them to find out what their concerns actually are; dealing in 'I don't like paki shop' stereotypes or attempting to appeal with solutions created elsewhere is no longer up to the job (if it ever were).

Louis MacNeice

This post seems so oversimplified and filled by buzzwords that the lack of substance passes largely unnoticed. It's not particularly difficult to engage with people or to find out what their 'concerns' are in my experience. However convincing them that their concerns are often (1) rooted in self interest and (2) that their perceptions wildly out of touch with reality is far more difficult.

Love the idea of 'producing' their own solutions locally as well, as if that would truly deal with the problems caused by a globalised economy.

 

[Spion]

Well, you first assumption is not about w/ commuinities coming together in collective action and spread the postive message, but about how they're likely to turn on each other in a a festivela of racial exclusion. What am i supposed to think. Such stuff from a socialist too!

And I'm still wondering what you'd do differently to me here . . .

I'd say I don't think that the shortage of council housing/jobs is the fault of immigrants, that successive govts and councils have sold them off, and that to get out the problem without creating racial strife we need community and workplace action and campaigns of that on a national scale to force the rich to pay for jobs and houses etc etc

I'd be surprised if that's really news to you, tbh, Butth

 

[tarannau]

You're asking what I would say: I would point out in my experience most council housing seems to go to inigenous whites, so the idea the it's all being taken by foreigners is untrue.

Well exactly, but if we talked to people to find out their concerns, in the best MacNiece theory, their perceptions may be so removed from the reality that the exercise would be of little use.

 

[butchersapron]

It's a discussion about the BNP gaining foothold in w/c areas is it not? Am I supposed to instantly imagine 'communities coming together in collective action'?

So fucking dishonest

No, it's a discussion about politicos relationship to w/c areas with some BNP support. Thank you so much for doing exactly what i needed to make this utterly clear though.

I/we know best. W/c people are too thick to know what's best for them. W/c people, despite being the most multi-racial section of society are at heart racists. They cannot and should not be trusted.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

What if their difficulties are 'all the darkies taking our houses'? How will you 'help' them away from that, Louis? Seriously, what would you say?

It's not a response that has been to the fore in the IWCA's survey work; housing has certainly featured, as has anti-social behaviour, but without the racist take you seem to presume. Perhaps that is because working class communities, when asked serious questions with the promise of genuine sustained responses to their answers, are more than able to move beyond the language of 'darkies' and 'paki shops'.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Spion]

Wow, you'd do exactly what people like me would when faced with your strawman - yet somehow your position is that much nobler and more socialist.

I oppose stikes, why? because of enoch's dockers.

How odd a response.

Do you agree or disagree with what I would say?

 

[treelover]

yeah, its all those nasty 'estate scum' innit, despite many of them having much higher levels of racial integration than say, the far left.....

Well, you first assumption is not about w/ commuinities coming together in collective action and spread the postive message, but about how they're likely to turn on each other in a a festivela of racial exclusion. What am i supposed to think. Such stuff from a socialist too!

 

[butchersapron]

This post seems so oversimplified and filled by buzzwords that the lack of substance passes largely unnoticed. It's not particularly difficult to engage with people or to find out what their 'concerns' are in my experience. However convincing them that their concerns are often (1) rooted in self interest and (2) that their perceptions wildly out of touch with reality is far more difficult.

Love the idea of 'producing' their own solutions locally as well, as if that would truly deal with the problems caused by a globalised economy.

Name one buzzword in LM's post.

Maybe people like you are not best placed to tell people what their real interests are and why they'd be better off following you and ditching their own stuff. Jesus.

Ok, who is going to produce solutions then?

 

[Spion]

No, it's a discussion about politicos relationship to w/c areas with some BNP support. Thank you so much for doing exactly what i needed to make this utterly clear though.

I/we know best. W/c people are too thick to know what's best for them. W/c people, despite being the most multi-racial section of society are at heart racists. They cannot and should not be trusted.

Weirdo

 

[butchersapron]

It's not a response that has been to the fore in the IWCA's survey work; housing has certainly featured, as has anti-social behaviour, but without the racist take you seem to presume. Perhaps that is because working class communities, when asked serious questions with the promise of genuine sustained responses to their answers, are more than able to move beyond the language of 'darkies' and 'paki shops'.

Louis MacNeice

Those responses don't count.

 

[butchersapron]

Weirdo

50 more years. 50 more years!.

 

[Spion]

50 more years. 50 more years!.

Even weirder. Meds time is it?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

This post seems so oversimplified and filled by buzzwords that the lack of substance passes largely unnoticed. It's not particularly difficult to engage with people or to find out what their 'concerns' are in my experience. However convincing them that their concerns are often (1) rooted in self interest and (2) that their perceptions wildly out of touch with reality is far more difficult.

Love the idea of 'producing' their own solutions locally as well, as if that would truly deal with the problems caused by a globalised economy.

Please see my reply to Spion regarding what concerns working class communities are able to articualte; abilities which obviate the need for them to be convinced of anything much by outsiders.

Also given the current moribund state of organised working class politics, the need for effective local actions (even if they are currently only at the margins) is vital. A politics that can't deliver and sustain a safe play area, isn't really going to be convincing in any promises it makes about saving and sustaining the planet.

Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

This post seems so oversimplified and filled by buzzwords that the lack of substance passes largely unnoticed. It's not particularly difficult to engage with people or to find out what their 'concerns' are in my experience. However convincing them that their concerns are often (1) rooted in self interest and (2) that their perceptions wildly out of touch with reality is far more difficult.

Love the idea of 'producing' their own solutions locally as well, as if that would truly deal with the problems caused by a globalised economy.

Notice the priority in this pub running hard nut approach:

However convincing them that their concerns are often (1) rooted in self interest and (2) that their perceptions wildly out of touch with reality is far more difficult.

 

[weltweit]

No I don't think all BNP voters are racist.

Some of them are probably xenophobic or have xenophobic tendencies.

But of course that word would not have created such a thread as the word "racist" does.

 

[tarannau]

Name one buzzword in LM's post.

Maybe people like you are not best placed to tell people what their real interests are and why they'd be better off following you and ditching their own stuff. Jesus.

Ok, who is going to produce solutions then?

'
Engage.... produce.... solutions...difficulties...appeal... concerns'

Throw in a 'challenge' and a 'synergy' and I'd complete the bullshit bingo, consultation management edition. No disrespect, but that's exactly the language I'd use when putting together a consultation exercise for a housing provider.

LM may not want to agree, but finding out people's concerns is the easy thing. It's linking them to reality and genuine solutions that's the difficulty.

 

[dtb]

not all are, i think some people just want to vote for a party that will take a geuine interest in the voice of english born people ahead of immigrants

 

[butchersapron]

'
Engage.... produce.... solutions...difficulties...appeal... concerns'

Throw in a 'challenge' and a 'synergy' and I'd complete the bullshit bingo, consultation management edition. No disrespect, but that's exactly the language I'd use when putting together a consultation exercise for a housing provider.

LM may not want to agree, but finding out people's concerns is the easy thing. It's linking them to reality and genuine solutions that's the difficulty.

What? You're the one buzzwording.

And, you don't quite get it. The the w/c themselves are the link. Hard as it obviously is for you to imagine such a a thing without some mediating profesional group inbetween. Putting together your consulations

 

[likesfish]

voting for the BNP is canary politics
everything else has failed
your pissed off you could vote for some weird left wing group thats burbling on about Palestine and Iraq and asylum seekers welcome
but why would you when electing the BNP will get the tv cameras round and a promise of no council house for foreign types

 

[butchersapron]

Engage.... produce.... solutions...difficulties...appeal... concerns

Buzzwords? That's one wide defintion if these normal everyday words are buzzwords.