Apple kills Palm Pre's iTunes sync

[Crispy]

Now that all itunes music purchases are DRM-free, you can copy them to whatever device you like (so long as it plays AAC). The only special thing that the Pre is doing is doing that copying directly through the iTunes software. It's for convenience only. It's still completely possible to just drag and drop music in an itunes library onto the pre in explorer, just like it is with any other player.

 

[tarannau]

No, they can't when it comes to iTunes as well you know - hence the current Palm vs Apple barney and an industry expert criticising Apple's approach as being, "very counter to the ideals of openness."

If this was Microsoft, you'd be slagging them off. Why defend closed practices?

Maybe I'm missing something, but you can still transfer mp3s from your mac/pc to your Palm. You can't piggyback as easily off the itunes software to do so perhaps, but nobody ever forced you into the choice to use itunes, nor would corporates ordinarily be expected to provide software to help rivals.

Protected AAC files, pretty much a legacy these days, may provide problems. But you can hardly blame Apple for early policies of copy protection - AAC was a lot better than some of the equivalents such as MS's fairplay and protected WMV formats.

 

[editor]

Now that all itunes music purchases are DRM-free, you can copy them to whatever device you like (so long as it plays AAC). The only special thing that the Pre is doing is doing that copying directly through the iTunes software.

But if you've bought the songs via iTunes, why shouldn't you be able to directly sync them whatever device you like with it instead of having go through extra hoops just because you're not using an Apple product?

I think this industry expert got it spot on: “There’s something very unseemly about what Apple is doing....It’s very counter to the ideals of openness, which is a concept Apple pioneered in computing.”

 

[jæd]

Now that all itunes music purchases are DRM-free, you can copy them to whatever device you like (so long as it plays AAC). The only special thing that the Pre is doing is doing that copying directly through the iTunes software. It's for convenience only. It's still completely possible to just drag and drop music in an itunes library onto the pre in explorer, just like it is with any other player.

Yep.. This is why writing a Sync Tool for the Pre would so simple. It shows up as a USB drive.

0) Parse iTunes XML to find all the Playlists
1) Ask the user which play-list to copy.
2) Parse iTunes XML Db and the locations of the files
3) Copy the files from their location on hard-disk to the Palm Pre

Since this is quite simple, one wonders why they don't do it...

 

[Crispy]

But if you've bought the songs via iTunes, why shouldn't you be able to directly sync them whatever device you like with it instead of having go through extra hoops just because you're not using an Apple product?

What extra hoops? They're the same hoops you have to jump through if you bought your music from any of the online stores - amazon for example. Does Sony Connect (or whatever it's called) allow direct syncing to Creative players? No. Can you drag and drop files onto a sony player or a creative player from explorer? yes.

 

[editor]

Yep.. This is why writing a Sync Tool for the Pre would so simple. It shows up as a USB drive.

0) Parse iTunes XML to find all the Playlists
1) Ask the user which play-list to copy.
2) Parse iTunes XML Db and the locations of the files
3) Copy the files from their location on hard-disk to the Palm Pre

Since this is quite simple, one wonders why they don't do it...

Have you actually tried this out yourself?

 

[editor]

What extra hoops? They're the same hoops you have to jump through if you bought your music from any of the online stores - amazon for example. Does Sony Connect (or whatever it's called) allow direct syncing to Creative players? No. Can you drag and drop files onto a sony player or a creative player from explorer? yes.

Is it as easy to fully sync iTunes content with another MP3 player as it is with an iPod?

There's your extra hoops.

 

[jæd]

I think this industry expert got it spot on: “There’s something very unseemly about what Apple is doing....It’s very counter to the ideals of openness, which is a concept Apple pioneered in computing.”

Its very counter to good programming practice : using unsupported private API's.

And I'd question that idea that Apple has always been about openness...

 

[Crispy]

Is it as easy to fully sync iTunes content with another MP3 player as it is with an iPod?

There's your extra hoops.

'itunes content' seems to be something special to you. it's not. it's plain old AAC and MP3 files in folders on a hard drive. Apple make it easy to manage those files and copy them to their device by providing software to do that. Just like Sony has software to do the same thing. You could quite happily purchase music from the itunes store, then use a different piece of software to manage your portable device.

I wouldn't expect my ipod to start talking to Sony Connect, and I wouldn't expect my Walkman to start talking to iTunes.

Where apple lets us down is not allowing drag and drop do fill the ipod. Not that that's an inconvenience for me, because itunes is much more friendly and useful than d'n'd.

 

[tarannau]

But if you've bought the songs via iTunes, why shouldn't you be able to directly sync them whatever device you like with it instead of having go through extra hoops just because you're not using an Apple product?

I think this industry expert got it spot on: “There’s something very unseemly about what Apple is doing....It’s very counter to the ideals of openness, which is a concept Apple pioneered in computing.”

Blimey, that's some Jazzz like goalposts shifting there. So you'll admit that you can transfer songs, even purchased ones, from itunes to your Palm now. It's just a little bit more a faff, a minor inconvenience.

That doesn't seem unreasonable given that Apple produce and design itunes specifically with ipods and their own product in mind. It's a free download, not an alternate open source OS. If Palm want to design a properly integrated music library and software solution for themselves that's fine and dandy, but just whining that they can't properly/fully piggyback on itunes seems a little rich. I don't expect to use Sony's Soundstage software (thank christ) with my ipod - itunes is better than most.

 

[Sunray]

But if you've bought the songs via iTunes, why shouldn't you be able to directly sync them whatever device you like with it instead of having go through extra hoops just because you're not using an Apple product?

I think this industry expert got it spot on: “There’s something very unseemly about what Apple is doing....It’s very counter to the ideals of openness, which is a concept Apple pioneered in computing.”

Because Apple can write their software in anyway they please, they invest the cash to get it written. Does a company have to write software to non-existant 'open' guidelines?

How could Apple hope to know how to sync to other devices anyway? Do they have to publish their sync technology? Most other music devices don't have such sophisticated sync technology anyway. Leaving it to drag and drop.

iTunes is clearly for Apple devices. Don't buy music off it if you don't have a Apple device. There are plenty of places that will sell you MP3's for cheap.

 

[jæd]

Have you actually tried this out yourself?

I've written various scripts to slice and dice iTunes XML for my own purposes. (Mostly for exporting tracks). The only problems I've found is when the XML file gets large. The XML file is fairly easy to parse for numerous bits of handy information.

I don't have one to hand right now, but the Pre can show up as a USB hard-drive when plugged in. It would be fairly trivial to rework one of the above scripts to do this. And on Leopard at least it would be easy to wrap some some kind of GUI around Python.

 

[Crispy]

For example, here's a typical entry in the itunes XML file

18:     <dict>
19:       <key>Track ID</key><integer>37</integer>
20:       <key>Name</key><string>Thinking Of You</string>
21:       <key>Artist</key><string>Lenny Kravitz</string>
22:       <key>Composer</key><string>Lenny Kravitz/Lysa Trenier</string>
23:       <key>Album</key><string>5</string>
24:       <key>Genre</key><string>Pop/Funk</string>
25:       <key>Kind</key><string>MPEG audio file</string>
26:       <key>Size</key><integer>6141310</integer>
27:       <key>Total Time</key><integer>383764</integer>
28:       <key>Track Number</key><integer>32</integer>
29:       <key>Year</key><integer>1998</integer>
30:       <key>Date Modified</key><date>2005-06-08T20:04:06Z</date>
31:       <key>Date Added</key><date>2004-05-06T04:29:57Z</date>
32:       <key>Bit Rate</key><integer>128</integer>
33:       <key>Sample Rate</key><integer>44100</integer>
34:       <key>Comments</key><string>By ScazzI</string>
35:       <key>Play Count</key><integer>6</integer>
36:       <key>Play Date</key><integer>-1088231274</integer>
37:       <key>Play Date UTC</key><date>2005-08-13T05:00:22Z</date>
38:       <key>Track Type</key><string>File</string>
39:       <key>Location</key><string>file://localhost/C:/
40:       Documents%20and%20Settings/Test%20Name/My%20Documents/
41:       My%20Music/Masheed/Lenny%20Kravitz%20-%20Thinking%20Of%20You.mp3/
42:       </string>
43:       <key>File Folder Count</key><integer>-1</integer>
44:       <key>Library Folder Count</key><integer>-1</integer>
45:     </dict>

I can't program for shit, but even I can see that this is easy data to interpret. A simple sync program should be the work of a couple of days for any half decent coder.

 

[grit]

For example, here's a typical entry in the itunes XML file

18:     <dict>
19:       <key>Track ID</key><integer>37</integer>
20:       <key>Name</key><string>Thinking Of You</string>
21:       <key>Artist</key><string>Lenny Kravitz</string>
22:       <key>Composer</key><string>Lenny Kravitz/Lysa Trenier</string>
23:       <key>Album</key><string>5</string>
24:       <key>Genre</key><string>Pop/Funk</string>
25:       <key>Kind</key><string>MPEG audio file</string>
26:       <key>Size</key><integer>6141310</integer>
27:       <key>Total Time</key><integer>383764</integer>
28:       <key>Track Number</key><integer>32</integer>
29:       <key>Year</key><integer>1998</integer>
30:       <key>Date Modified</key><date>2005-06-08T20:04:06Z</date>
31:       <key>Date Added</key><date>2004-05-06T04:29:57Z</date>
32:       <key>Bit Rate</key><integer>128</integer>
33:       <key>Sample Rate</key><integer>44100</integer>
34:       <key>Comments</key><string>By ScazzI</string>
35:       <key>Play Count</key><integer>6</integer>
36:       <key>Play Date</key><integer>-1088231274</integer>
37:       <key>Play Date UTC</key><date>2005-08-13T05:00:22Z</date>
38:       <key>Track Type</key><string>File</string>
39:       <key>Location</key><string>file://localhost/C:/
40:       Documents%20and%20Settings/Test%20Name/My%20Documents/
41:       My%20Music/Masheed/Lenny%20Kravitz%20-%20Thinking%20Of%20You.mp3/
42:       </string>
43:       <key>File Folder Count</key><integer>-1</integer>
44:       <key>Library Folder Count</key><integer>-1</integer>
45:     </dict>

I can't program for shit, but even I can see that this is easy data to interpret. A simple sync program should be the work of a couple of days for any half decent coder.

Yup, its XML pretty much any modern language will have a lib parser for it. I dont think there is even a few days work in throwing something together (well maybe if you wanted a flashy GUI).

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I think Apple take the view that they will make even more money by selling the devices that people buy the music to put onto. iTunes tight integration is a selling point for their music devices. Tight integration with a device does not make a monopoly.

Can iPod owners buy and install music from anywhere. Yes. Can non iPod owners buy music from other sources than iTunes. Yes. Can you buy music from iTunes and install it on any device. While not easy due to the way iTunes formats the track names, its not impossible.

I think people focus far too much on iTunes without looking at the bigger picture.

Yeah but the anti Apple brigade are always going to froth at the mouth no matter what Apple does...

 

[grit]

Just wondering do people really think there would be a big demand for a little app to sync itunes stuff with with the pre? And that there isint something out there already.

 

[jæd]

Just wondering do people really think there would be a big demand for a little app to sync itunes stuff with with the pre? And that there isint something out there already.

I used to use the Palm OS version of : http://www.markspace.com/products/pre/mac/palm-pre-sync-overview.html

 

[grit]

I see they are writing a windows version, heh was going to do it myself if there was any demand.

 

[editor]

Yeah but the anti Apple brigade are always going to froth at the mouth no matter what Apple does...

What is this frothing "anti-Apple brigade" you're always banging on and on and on about?

 

[grit]

What is this frothing "anti-Apple brigade" you're always banging on and on and on about?

YOU (just kidding relax)

 

[editor]

Now, this is interesting. Have Palm forced Apple's hand and notched up one almighty win? If they have, it's also a big win for consumers.

The Boy Genius Report recently posted up another series of screenshots supposedly from the upcoming iTunes 9 release that's coming down the pike. The part most people are noticing is that it will integrate social media like Facebook, but Philip Berne of infoSync just made the smartest Tweet I've seen today:

People are burying the lede on this iTunes 9 story. The big news, if true, is 3rd party device support. If you can't beat 'em, sync 'em.
​

Yes indeedy - the screenshot you see above from BGR shows a "Samsung YH-J70JL Black" as a full on device within iTunes. That would be a Samsung MP3 Player and we can't help but notice that it's not an iPod.
Of course, the history of the Palm Pre and iTunes is storied, to say the least, but the latest round included Palm's complaint to the USB-IF about Apple's policies of blocking USB devices by Vendor ID. That goes against the policy of openness surrounding the USB spec, but Palm is of course not pure in this situation either as they're spoofing Apple's own vendor ID on the Pre. The full story is here, if you're interested.
It obviously goes against every assumption we have had about Apple to assume that they'd buckle to the USB -IF and Palm by opening up iTunes as a result of Palm's letter. Maybe the fact that iTunes is now responsible for 25% of all US music sales has Apple feeling magnanimous. Either way, if this pans out, we're going to chalk it up as a big win for Palm, even if it's not fair to say they're directly responsible for it.


http://www.precentral.net/apple-relent-add-3rd-party-sync-itunes-officially

 

[Kid_Eternity]

What is this frothing "anti-Apple brigade" you're always banging on and on and on about?

lol! Don't you read things online?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

But hold on, iTunes already supports third party devices At least it did a few years ago when I used it with a Creative USB thing. They just weren't pretending to be iPods and didn't have full iPod functionality - you could plug them in and copy music over, that's all.

 

[Crispy]

It used to, and still does support those old models. But not anything newer.
I think you can get a plugin for the windows version that syncs to generic devices.

 

[pengaleng]

who cares? lol

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It used to, and still does support those old models. But not anything newer.
I think you can get a plugin for the windows version that syncs to generic devices.

There's no difference between my old Muvo and any player that mounts as a standard drive. They're all straightforward generic USB drives that mount on anything.

 

[Crispy]

I think one of us should JFGI, but I CBB, SO GNAGB.

 

[jæd]

who cares? lol

Best comment all thread. She wins...

Of course, assuming these aren't fake (which MacRumors.com thinks so) its important to Palm fan-boys and cheerleaders. But then (if these are true images. Apple supported DVD ripping. Really...?) it means Palm has lost a stream of free PR and a marketing bullet-point.

And lets think that perhaps this was planned all along for Apples 9.x release, or realise that this functionality has been available before.

But lets all take things at face value.

 

[Crispy]

DVD ripping isn't going to happen. It's illegal under the DMCA - USA federal law would have to be changed.

 

[editor]

Best comment all thread. She wins...

Don't be a prat. You obviously care because you're bothering to respond. Again.

Of course, assuming these aren't fake (which MacRumors.com thinks so) its important to Palm fan-boys and cheerleaders.

Actually, with iTunes cornering a quarter of the US music market and growing every day, I'd say it's important for consumers to be able to enjoy full and seamless syncing of the songs they've bought through iTunes with any device they damn well like, rather than being forced to exclusively use Apple products to get the full benefits.