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Apple kills Palm Pre's iTunes sync

jæd said:
The next step would be for Apple wanting to take a closer look at the Multi-touch gestures gubbins. I can imagine the outrage/wailing that a company using its Patent rights would give...
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Except it seems that Apple have already busted a ton of Palm patents without asking.
Do you want one powerful company owning all the patents - and buying some of them up from smaller companies - on things as universal and as basic as finger gestures? How's that good for the consumer?
jæd said:
This is completely possible on the iPhone. Lots of other Apps do this by sync'ing either through via Wifi or over 3G.
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Perhaps you'd best tell that to the makers of Agendus then because they seem singularly unable to make their program work as it does on other platforms, thanks to Apple's restrictions.
 
Editor said:
Perhaps you'd best tell that to the makers of Agendus then because they seem singularly unable to make their program work as it does on other platforms, thanks to Apple's restrictions.
Click to expand...

I'd be happy to, for a small consultancy fee of course. :D Interestingly a quick shuffty at the App Store reveals SmartTime which appears to do much the same thing as Agendus... (ie, Calendar View, Wireless Sync, Task Mangement, etc...)
 
jæd said:
I'd be happy to, for a small consultancy fee of course. :D Interestingly a quick shuffty at the App Store reveals SmartTime which appears to do much the same thing as Agendus...
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Unfortunately their site is borked and I can't see the videos of it in action. Good news for iPhone users if it is as good as Agendus. I wish someone would write something for the G1.
 
It's not sync that is causing Agendus problems. The Palm version syncs perfectly happily with iCal (well, as happily as Palms sync normally with Macs, which isn't very happily but that's not Agendus' fault, it's Palm's) preserving all of the metadata that was attached to events and tasks. This was a deliberate design point on their part, they advertised it - the extra data is stored in plain text in the notes section of tasks, meaning that anything which syncs will preserve it. You could use Linux if you wanted to.

What is causing Agendus problems is that it can't read or manipulate the calendar on the actual iPhone, so the app can't use the native calendar.

I totally understand those Agendus users out there who, when hearing version 1.0 of the iPhone flavour has no calendar integration, feel disappointed. Sadly enough, so far Apple doesn't allow any third party app to access the calendar. Essentially the iPhone SDK doesn't provide functions allowing developers to tie into calendar related data. Why is this? Unclear at the moment, but on the other hand there are some APIs allowing access to contact info, which we are fully taking advantage of, and these allow us to integrate contacts. Unfortunately things don't appear to change much even in version 3 of the SDK, or at least in the latest beta version we have, there still is no Calendar related API.
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http://www.iambic.com/agendus/iphone/?cnt=calendar_info

Which is stupid, but not related to syncing.
 
jæd said:
I'd be happy to, for a small consultancy fee of course. :D Interestingly a quick shuffty at the App Store reveals SmartTime which appears to do much the same thing as Agendus... (ie, Calendar View, Wireless Sync, Task Mangement, etc...)
Click to expand...

What they're doing is syncing with Google Calendar rather than iCal. This is apparently the direction that Iambic are going in as well with Agendus - http://support.iambic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38041 - though I'm really not a big fan of that approach personally (and neither are they, it appears).
 
I can't see that happening. Apple do make the majority of online music sales, certainly, but not to the degree that MS have influence over the OS "market" - and they sell unprotected AAC now, which is a standard format and accessible to any device. (Did that move have anything to do with the potential for antitrust/monopoly proceedings? It's certainly possible, but also it's a competitive move for them, so hard to say relatively.)

It's certainly easier to sync things you buy with iTunes with an iPod than anything else, but it's no harder to sync music you buy with iTunes with, say, a Creative Zen than it is to sync music you buy from Amazon or emusic or whoever. You always have to copy it over or use whatever other procedure the device requires.

I wouldn't give a shit if Apple got into some shit or other for the iTunes Music Store, I just can't see it. The MS thing was MS smuggling proprietory protocols into the majority of computers sold, using their primacy in OS sales to promote other areas of their business and locking other people out if they didn't want to pay licencing fees. iTunes is a percentage of online - and note that that's only online, Apple don't own the recorded music industry generally if you include CDs et al - music being sold in a way that it slightly favourable to Apple's own devices. Thats what their lawyers would say and they have good lawyers.
 
editor said:
You gotta admire Palm's balls. Their new update fully restores the iTunes syncing that Apple intentionally borked! Game on!

http://www.precentral.net/webos-11-palm-pre-exchange-many-fixes
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Not really, I'd be impressed if Palm admitted they didn't have enough resources to publish its own Music Sync, and asked for the Open-Source community to help. Most of their Tech relies on open-source. Its surprising they then try to integrate with such a Closed Source Music platform.

And since this period, until their App Store closes, is very news scarce its quite a good strategy. It fits in with their "underdog" role perfectly. I can see at least two more iterations of this. This is probably all mapped out in advance due to their insider knowledge... Pity they can't work together and produce something new like Blackberry with its (beta) Mac-sync rather than exploiting holes.

And others continue to enjoy this phase. Apple get PR about having the dominent music sales platform and they get to show the Record Industry their commitment to security. Pundits get to write yet more articles about Apple and Palm, and the fanboys get to argue endlessly some more...
 
The itunes music library information is stored in an unobfuscated XML file. It would be very easy to read this file and use it to drive a music sync app.
 
Interesting analysis here: http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync

Jeffgus in our forums confirms the same: The Pre is now telling your computer that the vendor who made it is Apple. The change here is that with previous versions of webOS, the Vendor ID was "0x0830 (Palm Inc.)." So while previously the Pre identified itself as a "mass storage device" called an iPod, now it's identifying itself as a "mass storage device manufactured by Apple" called an iPod.

The plot has thickened, though - read on to see more about Palm calling foul to the USB authorities.

Tricky tricky, maybe too tricky? When you apply for a USB Vendor ID, you sign a form (PDF link) that explicitly states that:

Unauthorized use of assigned or unassigned USB Vendor ID Numbers and associated Product ID Numbers are strictly prohibited.

Ok, it appears that Palm's doing something possibly nefarious, but the plot, it has thickened like Hamburger Helper sauce that you have let sit in the fridge. In a quote given to All Things D, Palm spokesperson Lynn Fox seems to be raising the stakes on this Palm Pre / iTunes compatibility battle:

Palm has released webOS 1.1, which, along with offering more robust EAS support for business users, re-enables Palm media sync,” said company spokesperson Lynn Fox. “Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own without interference across devices and services, so on behalf of consumers, we have notified the USB Implementers Forum [USB-IF] of what we believe is improper use of the Vendor ID number by another member.

When Apple updated iTunes to 8.2.1 and blocked the Pre, presumably they did so by telling iTunes to block out any Vendor IDs besides Apple's. (We'll note that the root USB Node as identified by IOUSBDevice is still "Pre," so we could see another round of this stuff. Thanks to DVD Jon for the info on that one)

We'll set aside the cognitive dissonance of a Palm playing games with one USB-IF standard while complaining about another one for the moment, just so we can ask: what is the nature of their notification to the USB- IF?

We can make a guess: USB being a relatively open (albeit opt-in) 'standard,' either Palm thinks it's improper for iTunes to only allow connectivity with certain Vendor IDs. Since they feel they're in the right there, I guess they don't mind wading into the gray area of spoofing another company's USB Vendor ID. Gizmodo surmises the same.

Either way, the notification to the USB-IF seem to be as gusty a move as re-enabling iTunes sync in the first place. We haven't seen a patent war erupt between Palm and Apple (yet), but this iTunes / USB ID mess is a perfectly good stand-in. As Giz notes, however, the idea of the USB-IF pulling "USB Compliant" stickers from boxes feels like fairly low stakes.
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More here:
http://gizmodo.com/5321984/palm-wou...now-that-theyre-fighting-with-apple-right-now
Oh, and here's a good comment from a Gizmodo reader.
Fun fact: in the 1992 court case Sega v. Accolade, the Ninth Circuit ruled that if you lock someone out of your platform, then they copy a snippet of your code to get back in, it's fair use: copyrights do not give you the right to deny your competitors interoperability with your system.

That's a nontechnical version, but read more here; the key parargaph starts "The Ninth Circuit reversed": http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/commentary/chn95t1.htm

I don't think there's a legal right not to have your Vendor ID imitated. If Apple tried to get protection via trademark, I don't think it would fly, partly because of Sega vs. Accolade (IP rights do not convey a magic right to lock out competitors), partly because this isn't a trademark infringement (Palm isn't trying to confuse consumers into buying the Pre by convincing them Apple made it). Like the post said, we're talking USB badges here.

I agree with the headline here: Palm would really like you to know Apple is locking out the Pre. That may be one of the main reasons they did iTunes sync in the first place: it makes Apple look anticompetitive and like a bully. Which Apple is: exclusively tying their software (preloaded on Macs!) and their phones, and actively locking out competitors, is in a way *worse* behavior towards consumers than Microsoft merely giving away their browser with their operating system and not trying to break anything.

Apple should try to make good hardware and good software, but building their business model around exclusivity just isn't good for customers, or for Apple in the long run.
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If Palm win this battle and folks end up being able to use any MP3 player they like to sync with the content they've legally bought off iTunes, I'd say that's a win for the consumer.
 
Agreed. itunes used to support 'generic devices' and you could get plugins for music players other than ipods (this was a hangover from itunes' genesis as 3rd party SoundJam)
 
Crispy said:
Agreed. itunes used to support 'generic devices' and you could get plugins for music players other than ipods (this was a hangover from itunes' genesis as 3rd party SoundJam)
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This bloke's well pissed off.
Goodbye Apple

I've owned a lot of iPods. My wife has owned a lot of iPods.

Not anymore.

For the longest time, I could use gtkpod to seamlessly access my iPods from my Ubuntu desktop. It initially took some reverse-engineering effort to understand the iPod's data format to be able to access it from non-iTunes software, but it was possible. All of a sudden, Apple is trying everything they can to prohibit interopability.

First, they encrypted the firmware, blocking the use of third-party firmware like Rockbox and iPod Linux. This doesn't bother me much, as I always prefered the original Apple firmware anyway.

Then, in August 2007, they added a new hash to the database to block non-iTunes software. This was quicky reverse-engineered and support was added to gtkpod once again.

In November 2008, they changed the hash again. This time, Apple used code-obfuscation software on iTunes in an effort to complicate reverse-engineering a second time. When a wiki was put up to start documenting the new hash, Apple sent a takedown notice. Fortunately, some people found an ugly workaround to get gtkpod working again.

In 2009, Palm released the Palm Pre. It supported syncing with iTunes. Apple retaliated by updating iTunes specifically to block Palm Pre interopability. Unfortunately, this changed the iPod database structure, and the workaround for gtkpod no longer works.

While I can understand Apple not wanting the Palm Pre to be able to sync with iTunes, as iTunes integration is one of the main selling points for the iPod, I can't understand why they would actively block third party software from accessing the iPod.

Everyone is now selling DRM-free mp3 music, so it's not a question of protecting DRM. You'd think they would want to sell more iPods, not block a certain percentage of their market out.

My 5G iPod broke today. Dear Apple, the replacement I purchase won't be from you.

http://mdeslaur.blogspot.com/2009/07/goodbye-apple.html
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jæd said:
Not really, I'd be impressed if Palm admitted they didn't have enough resources to publish its own Music Sync, and asked for the Open-Source community to help. Most of their Tech relies on open-source. Its surprising they then try to integrate with such a Closed Source Music platform.

And since this period, until their App Store closes, is very news scarce its quite a good strategy. It fits in with their "underdog" role perfectly. I can see at least two more iterations of this. This is probably all mapped out in advance due to their insider knowledge... Pity they can't work together and produce something new like Blackberry with its (beta) Mac-sync rather than exploiting holes.

And others continue to enjoy this phase. Apple get PR about having the dominent music sales platform and they get to show the Record Industry their commitment to security. Pundits get to write yet more articles about Apple and Palm, and the fanboys get to argue endlessly some more...
Click to expand...

Yep...
 
I don't think they're playing the victim at all.

I think they're quite cleverly holding a light to Apple's practices and - with luck - will successfully challenge their way of doing things.

They seemed to have already faced them down with their multi-touch patent claims, and the technology is now appearing on other handsets. That's a win for all consumers, IMO.

Don't you want to be able to sync your iTunes purchases with any device you like?
 
They're playing the victim for dramatic effect, but what they're really doing is putting two fingers up at Apple. They're doing it quite well really, because every time Apple does something to block them using iTunes, Apple looks worse.

It's not to do with syncing iTunes purchases at all though. Nothing Palm does allows you to sync DRMed iTunes tracks, and you can sync anything not DRMed with any device perfectly easily. It's Palm wanting to piggyback on the iTunes software, that's all.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
They're playing the victim for dramatic effect, but what they're really doing is putting two fingers up at Apple. They're doing it quite well really, because every time Apple does something to block them using iTunes, Apple looks worse.
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They seem to be winning the PR war too. Let's hope they win and people will be free to sync the tunes they paid for on iTunes with any device they like:
Palm’s tiff with Apple also has some people wondering why Apple even bothers. Mr. Purdy, the analyst, described Apple’s decision to thwart Palm’s working with iTunes as “shooting themselves in the foot.”

“All this means is that Palm’s customers would be able to purchase music through iTunes,” Mr. Purdy said. “This would offer an opportunity for increased revenue for Apple.”

Tim Wu, a professor at Columbia who specializes in telecommunications law, copyright and international trade, said, “There’s something very unseemly about what Apple is doing.” He added, “It’s very counter to the ideals of openness, which is a concept Apple pioneered in computing.” In 2007, Steven P. Jobs, Apple’s chief executive, issued a call to the music industry for openness, titled “Thoughts on Music.”

As for Palm, Mr. Wu said, “It sounds like an uphill battle, in terms of trying to stop Apple from doing this.”

But Palm may have a shot. “The history suggests that openness wins,” said Mr. Wu, citing examples like AT&T’s attempts to restrict the devices attached to its phone lines and Apple’s early attempts to sell printers that worked only with Macs.

It was not immediately clear how long Palm planned to battle future software patches from Apple that disable the smartphone’s compatibility with iTunes. The company did not say whether it would pursue lawsuits or enlist government aid on restraint of trade grounds.

“This is a classic technology cat-and-mouse game,” Mr. Gartenberg said. “It often comes down to which side tires first.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/technology/companies/04palm.html?_r=1
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I think Apple take the view that they will make even more money by selling the devices that people buy the music to put onto. iTunes tight integration is a selling point for their music devices. Tight integration with a device does not make a monopoly.

Can iPod owners buy and install music from anywhere. Yes. Can non iPod owners buy music from other sources than iTunes. Yes. Can you buy music from iTunes and install it on any device. While not easy due to the way iTunes formats the track names, its not impossible.

I think people focus far too much on iTunes without looking at the bigger picture.
 
Sunray said:
I think people focus far too much on iTunes without looking at the bigger picture.
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I think people should be able to sync the tunes they paid for with any device they ruddy well like. They've handed over the money, so it it should be their choice, not some corporates.
 
editor said:
I think people should be able to sync the tunes they paid for with any device they ruddy well like.
Click to expand...

They can, can't they? It's not as though the marketplace for unprotected mp3s doesn't exist now, despite the major labels' early, doomed attempts to force copy protection onto anything.
 
tarannau said:
They can, can't they?.
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No, they can't when it comes to iTunes as well you know - hence the current Palm vs Apple barney and an industry expert criticising Apple's approach as being, "very counter to the ideals of openness."

If this was Microsoft, you'd be slagging them off. Why defend closed practices?
 
editor said:
I think people should be able to sync the tunes they paid for with any device they ruddy well like. They've handed over the money, so it it should be their choice, not some corporates.
Click to expand...

I cant remember but does apple state anywhere that you cant sync itunes to something other than their own devices?
 
Sunray said:
I think Apple take the view that they will make even more money by selling the devices that people buy the music to put onto. iTunes tight integration is a selling point for their music devices. Tight integration with a device does not make a monopoly.

Can iPod owners buy and install music from anywhere. Yes. Can non iPod owners buy music from other sources than iTunes. Yes. Can you buy music from iTunes and install it on any device. While not easy due to the way iTunes formats the track names, its not impossible.
Click to expand...

There are numerous sync tools (on OS X at least) that will sync tracks from iTunes to 3rd party devices. Been that way for a long while.
 
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