Anyone recognise these pathetic little thugs?

[Andy the Don]

What's poverty got to do with it?

I thought that the arguement was the actions of the toerags on the BTP website had its roots in the way they were/are treated by society..?? I am just saying that society has nothing to do with the way a bunch of pissed up wankers behave on platform 8 at Wimbledon station.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No I've been on the left. Have spoken from a left perspective. It was only when I saw how the left has failed that I abandoned left dogma.

I had some very positive experiences with left politics but its a dead end and Marxist dogma fails to take into account human nature. You can have the fairest society in the world but there will still be those who want to abuse and control others, take more than their fair share, not contribute to society or wish to get a buzz from violence.

It was an inability to accept that humans are complex beings that helped me to part company with the dogmatic left.

perhaps i need to state this again.

you never have been, as is evidenced by your posts here, left wing.

catigorically, not, left, wing.

ever.

what part of this aren't you getting.

you might back slap your liberal attitude, that you aren't a bigot, you are more balanced and rational etc etc but in fact your words tell another story.

you have not put forward a left wing POV on these boards.

ergo you aren't left wing in your thinking as evidenced.

nor as i have previously stated did you honestly approach left wing thinking free from the prejudices of right wing dogma... ergo you are still right wing...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I thought that the arguement was the actions of the toerags on the BTP website had its roots in the way they were/are treated by society..?? I am just saying that society has nothing to do with the way a bunch of pissed up wankers behave on platform 8 at Wimbledon station.

are they inside a vaculm then... divorced from society by virtue of an unseen seperation barrier...

 

[citydreams]

it is wrong to ignore societies just desire for vengance on a wrongdoer.

Who said anything about ignoring it? there's a difference between acknowledging it and acting upon it though.
As usual you've already got your cock in your hand looking for an easy target.

'Defend the children of the poor and punish the wrongdoer' is what is over the main door of the Old Bailey and is a pretty fair statement in my opinion.

funny how the door isn't used anymore though innit?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I believe that vengance / retribution should be part of a justice system but it shouldn't be the whole story. You must leave room for rehabilitation and punishment but it is wrong to ignore societies just desire for vengance on a wrongdoer.

'Defend the children of the poor and punish the wrongdoer' is what is over the main door of the Old Bailey and is a pretty fair statement in my opinion.

it doesn't say Defend the children of the poor and punish the wrong doer and then wreak great vengence on them does it...

vengence has no place in civilised society. period.

it has some place in a dictatorship or a facist state otherwise it's an utterly nonsense concept...

 

[Andy the Don]

are they inside a vaculm then... divorced from society by virtue of an unseen seperation barrier...

No they are divorced from society by the virtue of ten pints of the "wifebeater".

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No they are divorced from society by the virtue of ten pints of the "wifebeater".

does said wife beater have quantum mechanical properties which place them in other dimensions have you alerted Steven Hawking about this?

they are the socieyty just as you are as well you know.

the whole concept of society isn't disperate or divisable from one's own actions.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

it doesn't say Defend the children of the poor and punish the wrong doer and then wreak great vengence on them does it...

vengence has no place in civilised society. period.

it has some place in a dictatorship or a facist state otherwise it's an utterly nonsense concept...

Retribution does have a place in a civilised society but retribution and vengance shouldn't be disproportionate.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

No they are divorced from society by the virtue of ten pints of the "wifebeater".

And their propensity to go to violence without any intervening thought of other ways to deal with the situation.

 

[citydreams]

And their propensity to go to violence without any intervening thought of other ways to deal with the situation.

hypocrite.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

funny how the door isn't used anymore though innit?

It still is but only on ceremonial occasions. When the new extension was opened in the 1970's a revolving door was put in in the extension. I believe the main door was closed to the public after IRA terrorists planted a bomb outside the Old Bailey.

 

[Andy the Don]

does said wife beater have quantum mechanical properties which place them in other dimensions have you alerted Steven Hawking about this?

Fuck yes, the times I have woken up in my youth after a session on the "wifebeater" not knowing where I am or how the hell I got there..

they are the socieyty just as you are as well you know.

the whole concept of society isn't disperate or divisable from one's own actions.

They are most likely your average white young man late teens to early twenties. Works, lives at home, probably in an area such as Mitcham or St Hellier. Went out on the lash got pissed up & did something fucking stupid. The same as we all have. The difference is the stupid thing they did is to beat some stranger unconscious & for that they have to pay. Their actions were not due to poverty, addiction or never beginning breast feed as a child. They were due to them being pissed up wankers.

 

[Poi E]

Ahh, just another great night in a society dominated and damaged by alcohol.

 

[tarannau]

And you'd be the arbiter of what's proportionate then KJ?

What if people under your obligation to provide 'desire for vengance on a wrongdoer' did seriously call for mob justice, hands cut off and a bit of lynching?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Retribution does have a place in a civilised society but retribution and vengance shouldn't be disproportionate.

in what world is retribution interchangeable with vengence...

perhaps you need to learn fucking english and the etomology of the fucking language before you attempt to fucking well use it...

I mean what right do you have to comment on the State of the UK when you don't even understand the language...

perhaps you need to fuck off back to where you originated from until you can learn to speak to us using the correct language...I mean i know people from eastern europe who arrived yesterday who can point out the flaws in your use of language... hell dude even me, a dyslexic is pointing out your language use is appauling... how fucking thick are you...

until then i'd keep your mouth shut so people can think you a fool rather than opeing it and proving it...

it's a resentment thing isn't it.

you failed for a bit now you are blaming the bloody forgineers...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

hypocrite.

Why? Am I advocating random violence towards the innocent? Check back at my posts on this matter and you will find that I'm not.

 

[Andy the Don]

And their propensity to go to violence without any intervening thought of other ways to deal with the situation.

That tends to go out of the window very quickly after ten pints of the "wifebeater".

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Fuck yes, the times I have woken up in my youth after a session on the "wifebeater" not knowing where I am or how the hell I got there..



They are most likely your average white young man late teens to early twenties. Works, lives at home, probably in an area such as Mitcham or St Hellier. Went out on the lash got pissed up & did something fucking stupid. The same as we all have. The difference is the stupid thing they did is to beat some stranger unconscious & for that they have to pay. Their actions were not due to poverty, addiction or never beginning breast feed as a child. They were due to them being pissed up wankers.

how can they be average if they are divorced from society...

it's the old KBJ thread theme of compartmentalising things to the n'th degree to attempt to claim that box a,b,c are bad which are caused by box d,e,f but in no uncertain terms are boxes a1, a2, a3, b1 b2 b3 in any way releated and indeed you'd be some kind of magical twat if you dared link them together getting an entire picture....

no they aren't divorced from society they are as part of it as you are, you and i and every one is society that's how it works their actions aren't sperate and disperate from the society you or i live in their actions as do yours and mine will have consiquneces. we will feel the effects of those consiquences, ergo we are part of the same society...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

And you'd be the arbiter of what's proportionate then KJ?

No I'd leave that to the courts. However, within reason the courts should take into account what effect a lesser sentence would have on the publics perception of the justice system.

What if people under your obligation to provide 'desire for vengance on a wrongdoer' did seriously call for mob justice, hands cut off and a bit of lynching?

In that case I wouldn't agree with it.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

That tends to go out of the window very quickly after ten pints of the "wifebeater".

Very true.

 

[citydreams]

Why? Am I advocating random violence towards the innocent? Check back at my posts on this matter and you will find that I'm not.

And their propensity to go to violence without any intervening thought of other ways to deal with the situation.

v's

I believe that vengance / retribution should be part of a justice system

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No I'd leave that to the courts. However, within reason the courts should take into account what effect a lesser sentence would have on the publics perception of the justice system.

no they shouldn't.

how is that fair or equal treatment with in the eye's fo the law then if there's one rule for archer and one from an other blagger... i mean after all archer was a stuffed shirt with delusions of grandure who earned and had millions surely they deserve more than an other blagger who's nicking to keep his family who are in poverty.

In that case I wouldn't agree with it.

only when you would agree it eh...

 

[Andy the Don]

how can they be average if they are divorced from society...

They were divorced from society by the fact they were pissed up when they attacked this average person on the train.
To quote Poi E a couple of posts before..

Ahh, just another great night in a society dominated and damaged by alcohol.

No other reason, they were not in some act of political action, they were did not attack this person because they were angry about they way society saw or treated them. Their actions do not need to be analysed & discussed to the nth degree. They were pissed up wankers.

 

[citydreams]

Their actions do not need to be analysed & discussed to the nth degree. They were pissed up wankers.

so why can some people be pissed up wankers and manage to successfully avoid kicking several shades of shit out of random folk?

I don't think punishment can be mentioned before understanding the reasons for a crime. Call me old fashioned...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

so why can some people be pissed up wankers and manage to successfully avoid kicking several shades of shit out of random folk?

I don't think punishment can be mentioned before understanding the reasons for a crime. Call me old fashioned...

Nah they are pissed up scum some of them were leaders some of them are followers a mixture of strong and weak personalities.

Thats all we need to know really.

Now on with the sentencing...

 

[Andy the Don]

so why can some people be pissed up wankers and manage to successfully avoid kicking several shades of shit out of random folk?

I don't think punishment can be mentioned before understanding the reasons for a crime. Call me old fashioned...

There may be mitigating circumstances that will be taken into consideration at the time of sentencing. But in a court of law they are more interested in the weight of evidence against the accused than the reasons behind the accused's actions.

 

[citydreams]

There may be mitigating circumstances that will be taken into consideration at the time of sentencing. But in a court of law they are more interested in the weight of evidence against the accused than the reasons behind the accused's actions.

and therein lies the problem.

 

[Blagsta]

I thought that the arguement was the actions of the toerags on the BTP website had its roots in the way they were/are treated by society..?? I am just saying that society has nothing to do with the way a bunch of pissed up wankers behave on platform 8 at Wimbledon station.

What's being poor got to do with being neglected as a child? Are you saying only poor people can neglect their kids? Or that poverty makes it more likely? What?

See, the arguments aren't as simple as you make out. However, there is evidence to show that abuse and neglect as a child affects brain development, personality development and makes anti-social behaviour more likely. It's a bit complex, to do with attachment theory, emotional regulation, cortisol levels etc but I can recommend Sue Gerhardt's book "Why Love Matters" for a good overview.

Interesting thing is, when I last went on about this and posted up a load of references, KJB agreed with almost everything I said. How quickly he forget and reverts to type!

 

[Blagsta]

And their propensity to go to violence without any intervening thought of other ways to deal with the situation.

Why do you think that might be? Is it genetic?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What's being poor got to do with being neglected as a child? Are you saying only poor people can neglect their kids? Or that poverty makes it more likely? What?

See, the arguments aren't as simple as you make out. However, there is evidence to show that abuse and neglect as a child affects brain development, personality development and makes anti-social behaviour more likely. It's a bit complex, to do with attachment theory, emotional regulation, cortisol levels etc but I can recommend Sue Gerhardt's book "Why Love Matters" for a good overview.

Interesting thing is, when I last went on about this and posted up a load of references, KJB agreed with almost everything I said. How quickly he forget and reverts to type!

I agree about the lack of emotional contact can make people more criminally inclined but on this particular situation it was just a bunch of arseholes who attacked an innocent man for the fun of it.