Anyone know the current penalty for mobile phone driving?

[cybertect]

As with many things, I think the answer is technological (consistent car fittings to suit all phones), legislative (fitted as standard (even by requirement to existing vehicles before next MOT), etc.)

Tricky. I'm hard pressed to think of a precedent for requiring retro-fitting of equipment to older vehicles. Even seat belt requirements were not retrospectively applied.

Nor would it perhaps even be necessary, desirable or practical with a vehicle like, say, a 1909 steam lorry.

Plenty of people still get by without a mobile phone or hardly ever use them (my parents, for example). It would be unjust to require them to fit a hands-free system that they are never going to use.

 

[detective-boy]

It would be unjust to require them to fit a hands-free system that they are never going to use.

Many people don't drive. It's unjust for them to have to pay towards roads. I'm gay. Why do I have to pay towards schools I'm never going to put kids in. And why can't something in lieu of paternity leave? I am the only driver for my car and my bike. I can only drive one at once and, when I am, the other is in my private garage. Why do I have to pay insurance for the one I am not using when I am not using it or keeping it on a public street? Why should someone with a TV they ony watch ITV on have to pay for a TV licence? ...

 

[guinnessdrinker]

It would be a lot cheaper just to have a couple of police flagging down any passing car where they see the driver on his or her phone.

Giles..

they would be too busy checking the colour of the driver....

 

[Giles]

I bought a perfectly satisfactory "hands free" system for my phone on a market stall the other day.

It consists of an earpiece, with a mic. on the lead, a clip to attach it to your shirt or whatever, and a wire with a plug that goes in the bottom of my phone.

No need to have anything "fitted" to my car. Just plug the lead into the phone, put the earpiece in, clip the lead to my shirt lapel, and hey presto! I can now have a handsfree call.

All of this stuff about retro-fitting "hands free kits" to cars old or new is not needed, is it?

Giles..

 

[cybertect]

Many people don't drive. It's unjust for them to have to pay towards roads.

Despite what some people on U75 would have you believe, if you look at the figures, motorists are net contributors to the Exchequer by a significant margin.

I'm gay. Why do I have to pay towards schools I'm never going to put kids in.

Just like you did, all the gay kids get an education too. You're paying society back for the education you received.

You also benefit from the education of everyone else's children in society, both in terms of general prosperity and from your ability to employ (in the broadest sense) someone with skills they have acquired during their state education.


And why can't something in lieu of paternity leave?

You're entitled to adoption leave if you choose to adopt. Even if you don't, you don't lose anything significant by not taking paternity or adoption leave, you just don't gain.

I am the only driver for my car and my bike. I can only drive one at once and, when I am, the other is in my private garage. Why do I have to pay insurance for the one I am not using when I am not using it or keeping it on a public street?

It's not a legal requirement to pay for insurance when you're not using the vehicle, you just need an insurance agreement for cover when you do use the car/bike. If it really irks you, get pay-as-you go insurance - Norwich Union are offering it now.

Why should someone with a TV they ony watch ITV on have to pay for a TV licence? ...

A not entirely unreasonable question.

Anyhow, all this rather distracts from the main points I was trying to make about precedents and practicality.

 

[detective-boy]

No need to have anything "fitted" to my car. Just plug the lead into the phone, put the earpiece in, clip the lead to my shirt lapel, and hey presto! I can now have a handsfree call.

You would actually still be committing an offence if you used it when driving. The requirement is for the phone to be "securely fitted" to the car or some such words.

 

[Giles]

You would actually still be committing an offence if you used it when driving. The requirement is for the phone to be "securely fitted" to the car or some such words.

Are you sure? I just had a look on a DFT web site here:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/documents/page/dft_rdsafety_025216.hcsp

And it just says:

"Q2. Is hands-free phone equipment allowed?

Provided that a phone can be operated without holding it, then hands-free equipment is not prohibited by the new regulation.

And pushing buttons on a phone while it is in a cradle or on the steering wheel or handlebars of a motorbike for example is not covered by the new offence, provided you don't hold the phone."

No mention of having to physically attach the phone to the car, just that you can't hold it while driving without breaking the law."

Interestingly, the exception to phones, PDAs and other devices that send or receive data (which are all forbidden to hold while driving) is two-way radios.

Giles..

 

[equationgirl]

This is the one thing I hate most as a pedestrian.

There I am,stood on the pavement near my house, which is at a crossroads with no traffic lights, trying to watch the four streams on traffic to anticipate who's going where when, and there's always somebody trying to execute a turn with one hand clasped to their ear, yakking on their mobile.

They aren't even looking at the traffic, never mind me.

Inconsiderate fucking tossers, and a £30 fine is nothing. Should be £250 + points at least, enough to make someone wince.

DB, if I do witness someone using their mobile phone whilst driving, is there anything I can do, or am I just wasting my time (and that of my local force?)

 

[detective-boy]

Are you sure? I just had a look on a DFT web site here:
....

I often point out I am not an expert on traffic stuff! You quote a view (albeit the view of a government department) on how the regulation will be interpreted. The actual regulation reads:

Amendment to the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986:

Add Regulation 110 ...

(6) For the purposes of this regulation -

(a) a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function ...

The wording about "securely attached" came from some legal opinion on what this actually meant in practice and, I must say, would be what I would expect a court to find. If you had it in your shirt pocket you would have to "hold" it to make a call. You may be able to argue you could just push a button, bracing it against your chest or leg, to answer a call, but I would not be too surprised (taking a sensible approach to interpretation of the legislation in which the Courts ask what problem the legislation was intended to address) to hear the Court had said even holding using a hand for half the function would suffice.

I think you would be on very dodgy ground indeed, though feel free to give it a run ...

 

[detective-boy]

DB, if I do witness someone using their mobile phone whilst driving, is there anything I can do, or am I just wasting my time (and that of my local force?)

In theory, yes. In practice, no. It would just be a waste of time and effort.

There is no way (unless there were exceptional circumstances (e.g. serious accident resulted, or repeated activity) the police (or, if they did, the CPS) would pursue a prosecution for this level of offence based solely on the word of one member of the public against another.

In theory, you could (if you knew the ID of the driver and, again in theory, the DVLA could provide the registered keepers details under the Data Protection Act provisions governing release to pursue a criminal prosecution) mount a private prosecution ... but the CPS could then intervene, take it over and, if they wished, discontinue it.

 

[Giles]

Hopefully I won't have to. Maybe I should get some sort of clip-on holder for it as well, I don't know. I thought if the phone was not at any time in my hand, I was OK.

I leave the "hands-free" earpiece / mic thingie in the car, and usually remember to put it in and attach it to my shirt before heading off on a longish trip.

Ironically, the closest I have come to a mobile-related mishap is when I stupidly tried to attach the hands-free thingie to the phone whilst driving!. I am so glad I didn't have to explain that one in court.

Giles..

 

[rich!]

DB, if I do witness someone using their mobile phone whilst driving, is there anything I can do, or am I just wasting my time (and that of my local force?)

Take a tip from the War Nerd: almost all problems can be solved by the correct use of a rocket-propelled grenade. True, it can take a while to find the point of vulnerability on a new design, but, oh the satisfaction when you see that 4x4 make one final contribution to CO2 emissions...

 

[thought]

No idea, but yesterday morning at 8.30 i was trapped between a woman in a merc's on the phone and a bloke in a sports car on the phone, neither of them seeing a lwb, transit van inbeween them. Trying to get through the pay points for the mersey tunnel. I wasnt amused.

Personally i think that the points for using a phone whilst driving should be the same as drink driving, as they both cause death.

 

[sir.clip]

I thought it was death could be wrong though

It should be..

One friend killed & two acquaintances injured whilst cycling due to the drivers of motor vehicles talking on mobile-phones and colliding with the cyclists...


The driver who caused the death of my friend .Barrington. served two
years for 'Causing Death by Reckless or Dangerous Driving'
not even manslaughter.. just some made up bullshit charge..
I really do not know what penalty the other drivers where issued with (if at all).......
Talking on the phone and driving a motor vehicle on public roads is a serious offence..... more so than parking on a yellow line. But the charge/Fine is higher on the parking crime...

And you know what cycling home the other evening I pulled up next to a Bus at the lights & there was the driver On the phone.. bus full of passengers One arm on the wheel & one hand on the phone stuck to his ear hole.. What do you do ?

 

[detective-boy]

Ironically, the closest I have come to a mobile-related mishap is when I stupidly tried to attach the hands-free thingie to the phone whilst driving!. I am so glad I didn't have to explain that one in court.

You're not the only one ...

 

[cybertect]

Anyhow, all this rather distracts from the main points I was trying to make about precedents and practicality.

BTW, don't get me wrong. Drivers who are on their phones while driving are twunts.

Indeed, having observed some people I know driving with them fitted, I'm actually slightly dubious about the real safety value of hands free kits.

 

[detective-boy]

Indeed, having observed some people I know driving with them fitted, I'm actually slightly dubious about the real safety value of hands free kits.

That is a major issue. There is research I have seen (don't ask for a citation!) which suggests the physical interference with driving is less of an issue than the mental distraction of having a conversation. This, however, gives rise to great difficulty in trying to distinguish the use of a mobile phone from other in car activities (listening to radio (especially talk shows rather than music), conversations with passengers, daydreaming (who hasn't suddenly "woken up" to find they have no recollection of driving the last couple of hundred yards?) ...

 

[Guineveretoo]

Far too many taxi drivers use mobile phones whilst driving, and it does not instil me with confidence. Black cabs usually use handsfree, so that's probably legal, but it is really common for minicab drivers to use phones whilst driving, and I often want to report them, but what is the point? I wouldn't be able to prove it anyway!

 

[detective-boy]

I often want to report them, but what is the point? I wouldn't be able to prove it anyway!

As they are now licensed, report them to the licensing authority. Enough complaints = no licence. If you think that is too extreme, report them to the company they work for, pointing out (a) you will be taking your business elsewhere and (b) if they endorse (or do nothing to stop) the use of mobile phones whilst driving they will be liable too if it causes a collision and they are in breach of H&S at Work regulations.

* Wonders if we could get cab drivers boring diatribes and rants banned on the same basis ... *

 

[Guineveretoo]

As they are now licensed, report them to the licensing authority. Enough complaints = no licence. If you think that is too extreme, report them to the company they work for, pointing out (a) you will be taking your business elsewhere and (b) if they endorse (or do nothing to stop) the use of mobile phones whilst driving they will be liable too if it causes a collision and they are in breach of H&S at Work regulations.

* Wonders if we could get cab drivers boring diatribes and rants banned on the same basis ... *

I did actually phone up one company recently, after their driver had jabbered on the phone for virtually the entire journey, using one hand to steer. They were simply not interested. I wouldn't be surprised if they have now boycotted this address, in fact, since I previously complained about one of their drivers ripping me off!

I did think about reporting it to the licensing authority, and told the cab company that, but I am aware that there is no way that I can prove that this happened, so it simply seemed too much of a fuss for no result. I don't think it is too extreme, though and, if I thought it would make a difference, I would certainly phone them up.

 

[detective-boy]

I did think about reporting it to the licensing authority, and told the cab company that, but I am aware that there is no way that I can prove that this happened, so it simply seemed too much of a fuss for no result. I don't think it is too extreme, though and, if I thought it would make a difference, I would certainly phone them up.

You don't need to "prove" anything. If the licensing authority wish, they may take your account as evidence and act upon it. On it's own they may think they need more, but if there's several complainants ...

It is likely that they will simply issue a warning (or even just wait to see if anything else happens) until they have a series of complaints. You could also complain about the attitude of the firm - they are licensed as well!!

 

[ELO]

That is a major issue. There is research I have seen (don't ask for a citation!) which suggests the physical interference with driving is less of an issue than the mental distraction of having a conversation. This, however, gives rise to great difficulty in trying to distinguish the use of a mobile phone from other in car activities (listening to radio (especially talk shows rather than music), conversations with passengers, daydreaming (who hasn't suddenly "woken up" to find they have no recollection of driving the last couple of hundred yards?) ...

We can't legislate to stop conversations with passengers, but we can ban mobiles in cars. It's never gonna be a perfect world, there is always gonna be some danger in driving, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it less imperfect.

As for the current hand-held offence, it's arguably worse than speeding etc because there is real intent there.

You *choose* to break the law by *choosing* to use your phone in the car. That makes it if anything more deserving of points than someone who (however carelessly) lets their car pick up speed down hill and gets clocked at 36mph.

I fully support the automatic 3 points and the doubling of the fine to 60 quid.

 

[cybertect]

That is a major issue. There is research I have seen (don't ask for a citation!) which suggests the physical interference with driving is less of an issue than the mental distraction of having a conversation. This, however, gives rise to great difficulty in trying to distinguish the use of a mobile phone from other in car activities (listening to radio (especially talk shows rather than music), conversations with passengers

I think there's a real distinction to be made between the two activities.

If I may the words of the media theorist, Marshall McLuhan, from his Convocation Address at the The University of Alberta in 1971.

Man himself becomes discarnate data, a sort of disembodied spirit coexisting and functioning simultaneously in diverse locations, whether by telephone or by television: on the telephone you are there, they are here.

[emphasis added]

When you're in conversation with a passenger in your car, you are both 'here' - you both occupy the same mental space.

When you're on the telephone, you're drawn into a 'third space' that you share with the person on the other end of the line, mentally projecting your self outside of the car. In some respects it's a precursor of William Gibson's cyberspace.

It's that abstraction of yourself from your immediate surroundings that is the source danger when using a telephone while driving. In McLuhan-esque language - "we extend ourselves by self-amputation" - in so doing we mentally numb ourselves to that part of us which is amputated. In the case of a phone conversation, we numb ourselves to our immediate surroundings. As you observe, much the same can be said of talk radio. To my mind, the law over whether the telephone is hands-free or not is chasing a red-herring as it misses the central issue.

This is a quite different case to a conversation with a passenger in our car, where we are actually engaging with the place we are in (the car). Consequently, it has a quite different effect to holding exactly the same conversation on the phone.

 

[pogofish]

Saw a right one when I was on the bike at a busy right-hander on the way to work this morning:

A smallish car "driven" by a great fat oaf with glasses & vertical hair came sailing through the top lane of the junction considerably faster than every other vehicle around. He was leaning back in his seat, with a phone held to his right ear, talking animatedly, with his left hand outstretched & making some sort of animated gestures at the same time.

Who had a hand on the steering wheel? His passenger!