Antisocial tenants to be denied Benefit

[tbaldwin]

Oh come on......it may not be the whole answer but you've got to admit it would go a hell of a long way to improving the situation. 'tough on the causes of crime' - yeah?

More money to put thru the hands of parasites in charge of the public and voluntary sector and regeneration?
I'm not convinced.

I think we need to smash the welfare state and dependency culture. Too many people take too much in the name of helping the poor they just keep helping themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think we need to smash the welfare state and dependency culture. Too many people take too much in the name of helping the poor they just keep helping themselves.

Quoted for posterity.

 

[tbaldwin]

Quoted for posterity.

Oooh stop it,your making me nervous.

 

[aylee]

Hear hear.

To regain respect in this society we need to end Mr.Blair's anti-social global behaviour that masquerades as a foreign policy.

He receives £147,000 worth of national benefits. Our taxes are his wages. The Middle East is burning.

Why do I always imagine myself in a student union whenever I read one of Matthew's posts?

 

[aylee]

Yes the Dundees Families Project is an often quoted example of what the government calls 'good practice' in this area but even then you'll find very few similar projects in operation around the rest of the country. Once again it's an issue of resources ....

I think this is correct. The problem with creative responses to crime and anti-social behaviour which are corrective rather than punitive is that they cost money, and the government is usually too short-sighted to factor in:

(a) the much higher costs of imprisoning someone instead.

(b) the hidden costs of the intolerable strain currently being placed on the prison system

(c) the fact that no matter how much jackbooted right wing New Labour-ites and Tories might shout, prison generally DOESN'T work.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

'Yep, help the filth to learn life skills or whatever - but first get them the hell away from me' would be anyones response to the extreme harrassment that occurs.

The trouble is though, that your approach doesn't go anyway at all towards solving the problem - at best, it shifts it somewhere else so that someone else gets harassed instead, and the whole sorry process repeats itself. The issue around full-time work was related to the point that people deemed to be behaving anti-socially may not be on housing benefit so what are you going to do about them? Or people who own their flat?

IMO, the fundamental point isn't that you should have done anything to help your neighbour but that help was available for her to address any of the root causes that lead to the problems she caused to you and yours. That's what the Dundee project that Marty21 pointed out was about, proactively working with difficult families to moderate extremes in behaviour and attitude.

Aylee makes some very good points above about why corrective actions are generally not considered worthwhile, and why being seen to be "tough on anti social behaviour" and all the punitive actions that accompany such initiatives are doomed to failure.

Oh, and I'm a "mr" not a "ms"

 

[tbaldwin]

(c) the fact that no matter how much jackbooted right wing New Labour-ites and Tories might shout, prison generally DOESN'T work.

So where else would you suggest we put violent child molesters,rapists,mass murderers etc?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oooh stop it,your making me nervous.

Don't be.

It's just so that even if you later decide to amend what you've said, there'll always be a post that can be linked to that reveals what a total haemorrhoid you really are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why do I always imagine myself in a student union whenever I read one of Matthew's posts?

Because he speaks fluent Stu-Pol?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think this is correct. The problem with creative responses to crime and anti-social behaviour which are corrective rather than punitive is that they cost money, and the government is usually too short-sighted to factor in:

(a) the much higher costs of imprisoning someone instead.

(b) the hidden costs of the intolerable strain currently being placed on the prison system

(c) the fact that no matter how much jackbooted right wing New Labour-ites and Tories might shout, prison generally DOESN'T work.

I think it's better to say that incarceration, in it's current form, works poorly.

Hardly surprising really. If you read anything written by people at the "coalface" of penal systems (from Machonochie through to the modern day), or if you've ever worked within the system, then you come to the conclusion in pretty short order that what has become a "warehousing" system with its' remit being shifted to generate profits for private interests can't be anything but a failure.
Until and unless detention at least provides inmates with treatment and/or education then it'll continue to have a 70%+ recidivism rate.

 

[dennisr]

IMO, the fundamental point isn't that you should have done anything to help your neighbour but that help was available for her to address any of the root causes that lead to the problems she caused to you and yours. That's what the Dundee project that Marty21 pointed out was about, proactively working with difficult families to moderate extremes in behaviour and attitude.

Aylee makes some very good points above about why corrective actions are generally not considered worthwhile, and why being seen to be "tough on anti social behaviour" and all the punitive actions that accompany such initiatives are doomed to failure.

Oh, and I'm a "mr" not a "ms"

Yep, I appreciate what you are saying and ultimately, I would agree with your comments on the states attempt to 'deal' with the problem. Unfortunately personnal experience still means I see red on this issue - and my reply was a rant. I still deeply, deeply resent years of shit forced upon me and family by filth who are happy to drag us down to thier level.

Yes, I agree that the punitive actions intended will not solve the underlying problems but I still could not give a shite about these 'victims' of nanny state hypocricy - they helped to bring this on themselves. Every reactive bone in my body still screams 'fuck em'. That goes against every considered viewpoint I have ever thought through but I still, honestly, do not care about these people and thier difficulties just as they made clear that they did not care about anyone else..

Proactive approaches are all very well - but in the meantime... A lot of the problem was the equally cowardly responses of other neighbours - if we had stood together... but anyway. You make your points well, and every civilised, thought through reasoning agrees with you, but...

(ohh, and i still see Pauline Tandoori everytime I look at your user name )

 

[marty21]

i have dealt with anti-social behaviour for many years now (or not dealt with depending on your pov) I have seen how it affects people's lives, i have spent hours on the phone talking to very distressed people. I have seen people's lives improved substantially when we have evicted trouble-makers (which gave me no personal pleasure as it's an admission of failure from my pov)

there is no easy answer, tenants demand to be moved, or demand their neighbours are moved, and there isn't enough properties available to satisfy either of these demands

i try and get neighbours to try and sort out their issues "inhouse" , as a home owner I don't have a housing officer that I can call to sort it out, obviously in some cases, they don't want to speak to their neighbours, for fear of violence from them, or committing acts of violence to them...

mediation is my preferred option, but in my experience, the professional mediatiors that we have used, haven't been that effective....

 

[dennisr]

i try and get neighbours to try and sort out their issues "inhouse" , as a home owner I don't have a housing officer that I can call to sort it out, obviously in some cases, they don't want to speak to their neighbours, for fear of violence from them, or committing acts of violence to them...

Part of the problem I had in trying to deal with the neighbours was complete lack of interest from the local council housing office - demoralised staff, soon to be out of a job and going through the process of having the whole estate handed over to a housing association. Had to fill in a 'diary' which after six months being duly filled was handed in - they promptly lost it!!! what a waste of time.

Then years of waiting while the new landlord sorted out themselves - finally transfer and, honestly, life could not have been sweeter after that but little or no help from anybody let alone any 'mediation' except my initial personal attempts

 

[marty21]

Part of the problem I had in trying to deal with the neighbours was complete lack of interest from the local council housing office - demoralised staff, soon to be out of a job and going through the process of having the whole estate handed over to a housing association. Had to fill in a 'diary' which after six months being duly filled was handed in - they promptly lost it!!! what a waste of time.

Then years of waiting while the new landlord sorted out themselves - finally transfer and, honestly, life could not have been sweeter after that but little or no help from anybody let alone any 'mediation' except my initial personal attempts

unfortunately that sounds a familiar story, it will depend on motivated staff if such issues are going to be dealt with

 

[nopassaran]

mediation is my preferred option, but in my experience, the professional mediatiors that we have used, haven't been that effective....

The thing about mediation is it can only really be used with any degree of effectiveness in nuisance type cases as opposed to those involving serious cases of anti-social behaviour which as i mentioned earlier often involves criminal type behaviour.

In my experience mediation has only ever been successful in a few cases.

If we're looking at this from a realistic pespective as opposed to:

I think we need to smash the welfare state and dependency culture.

then it's far better to involve as many different agencies as possible like the police (YES the cops!!!!), social services etc - dealing with issues as serious as this from a purely housing management perspective won't work, you need the input of other service providers to get a better idea of what can be done to remedy the problem, or at least attempt to - AND i'm not knocking you here marty21.

The thing is what happens when you have a clash of lifestyles - like young people living next door to older people....you know loud music, parties etc - i really think this is a big issue cos asb doesn't necessarily need to be malicious - which presents a good argument against current policy which favours mixed communities.