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Antifascist demo May 6

To a greater extent I agree with what you are saying. I think that the last time attacking the BNP by labelling then as "NAAZISS" had any success was with Dereck Beackon

Depends what you mean by success. There were a number of factors in Beacon's defeat in the local elections that came around shortly after his election in a by-election, but Beacon's vote actually increased in the local elections despite him losing the seat. And, of course, the frustration and alienation felt by local people did not dissipate. The problems on the island at that time - arguably still - were a combination of the legacy of LDDA development and Tower Hamlets Council housing policy. Beacon's shortlived success rested on those problems.

The campaign against him was not just the kind of Nazi-calling deployed by the ANL - iirc AFA dsitributed material likening the BNP to Tories in flight-jackets, in recognition precisely of the inadequacy of the 'Nazi' sloganeering.

Also note that the BNP was a very different beast back in 1993. It has reinvented itself significantly - learning a lot from Eurofascism. Whatever the success or otherwise of 'Nazi' sloganeering fifteen years ago, there is every reason to conclude that it is counter-productive today.
 
It really annoys me when the SWP and their ilk insist on calling the BNP Nazis.

Partly because it's sloppy (and obscures more accurate analysis of their politics), but mainly because the use of the term is born out of arrogance.

I agree, I think also there needs to be a debate around the consequences of this to militant anti-fascism.
 
durutti i wrote that very hurriedly- all those who ciriticse my use of normal fair point. But my partenr who is Black and all her friends who are Black as well as others when I asked them about it were absolutely for demonstrating outside the town hall if the BNP got in in Manchester and kicking them out of pubs and stopping them from operating.

Why? because they organise racist attacks.

If this was the only thing I was suggesting to stop the BNP sure it's be crap but it isn't. And forgod sake Durruti my friends are not middle class students- it really pisses me off you say this-it's mindless insults - you've never even met them. They are working class to the core.
 
because they organise racist attacks.

The only evidence you showed me regarding this was Oldham in 2001. Are there lots of others, to suggest it's part of the BNP policy?
 
They are the only ones I directly witnessed. It does seem to have been the last time this was organised at that level and degree though there have been increases in racist attacks where BNP have organised I believe (I.m no expert) though that may be correlational rather than causative.

I am suggesting a multi strand approach to fighting the BNP prioritising a political campaign for working class fighting organisations that can win. However, as the BNP is run by the same people in the main now as it was 7 years ago when there was a concerted campaign against Black communiteis it is right to organise defence as part of a working class campaign to defend the rights of working class people white and Black.
 
durutti i wrote that very hurriedly- all those who ciriticse my use of normal fair point. But my partenr who is Black and all her friends who are Black as well as others when I asked them about it were absolutely for demonstrating outside the town hall if the BNP got in in Manchester and kicking them out of pubs and stopping them from operating.

Why? because they organise racist attacks.

If this was the only thing I was suggesting to stop the BNP sure it's be crap but it isn't. And forgod sake Durruti my friends are not middle class students- it really pisses me off you say this-it's mindless insults - you've never even met them. They are working class to the core.

urban mate i know this .. but we want to defeat them yes??? so all i am saying is that this way will NOT defeat them .. that actually creating an alt is the only way .. yes this is NOT what people want to here but you are in PR .. you know there are NO short cuts
 
They are the only ones I directly witnessed. It does seem to have been the last time this was organised at that level and degree though there have been increases in racist attacks where BNP have organised I believe (I.m no expert) though that may be correlational rather than causative.

I am suggesting a multi strand approach to fighting the BNP prioritising a political campaign for working class fighting organisations that can win. However, as the BNP is run by the same people in the main now as it was 7 years ago when there was a concerted campaign against Black communiteis it is right to organise defence as part of a working class campaign to defend the rights of working class people white and Black.

deja vu .. remember this arguement 20 years ago :D imho wrong then as now many many many more black people are fked by day to day shit than the bnp ( about a 100,000 to 1 i would guess ) .. housing employment racism the police etc etc .. to reduce black peoples experiance to the bnp is wrong .. the bnp works brilliantly as it distracts us all black and white for the real cause of all of our problems
 
durutti i wrote that very hurriedly- all those who ciriticse my use of normal fair point. But my partenr who is Black and all her friends who are Black as well as others when I asked them about it were absolutely for demonstrating outside the town hall if the BNP got in in Manchester and kicking them out of pubs and stopping them from operating.

Why? because they organise racist attacks.

If this was the only thing I was suggesting to stop the BNP sure it's be crap but it isn't. And forgod sake Durruti my friends are not middle class students- it really pisses me off you say this-it's mindless insults - you've never even met them. They are working class to the core.


I don't mean to sound callous but just because someone who is black thinks that waving lollipops outside the GLA is a good way of challenging the BNP doesn't make it right.

Two immediate reasons:

1/ I could find plenty of black people who would disagree with this tactic for a number of reasons - the same reasons as any other ethnic group, either because they had a better idea or just couldn't be arsed with politics.

2/ Fascism is not confined to racism. It is a direct threat to the working class and its organisations - irrespective of race; consequently individuals who happen to be black or Jewish do not have a monopoly of right when it comes to deciding these matters.

You probably understand this already, but you'd be surprised how many of the middle-class student types who get involved with anti-fascism think it's a purely moral crusade against people who hate black people. (Which is why I'm very skeptical of the consciousness raising ability of outfits like LMHR.)

I recall the arguments back in the early 90's when the majority of large trade unions joined in pointless and bureaucratic campaigning with ARA (predominantly middle-class black nationalists) just because it was black-led, as if that really had anything to do with it...
 
I don't mean to sound callous but just because someone who is black thinks that waving lollipops outside the GLA is a good way of challenging the BNP doesn't make it right.

Two immediate reasons:

1/ I could find plenty of black people who would disagree with this tactic for a number of reasons - the same reasons as any other ethnic group, either because they had a better idea or just couldn't be arsed with politics.

2/ Fascism is not confined to racism. It is a direct threat to the working class and its organisations - irrespective of race; consequently individuals who happen to be black or Jewish do not have a monopoly of right when it comes to deciding these matters.

You probably understand this already, but you'd be surprised how many of the middle-class student types who get involved with anti-fascism think it's a purely moral crusade against people who hate black people. (Which is why I'm very skeptical of the consciousness raising ability of outfits like LMHR.)

I recall the arguments back in the early 90's when the majority of large trade unions joined in pointless and bureaucratic campaigning with ARA (predominantly middle-class black nationalists) just because it was black-led, as if that really had anything to do with it...

In the Greenwich area of London, which was reportedly referred to as the “racist murder’s capital of Britain" at the time, a young, black A level student Stephen Lawrence, aged just 18, was brutally murdered. This sparked off widespread protests. Also, a black woman councillor had received death threats, black families have been harassed out of their homes, people have been attacked and places of worship desecrated.

When the BNP first moved to the Bexley area in 1989, there were four racist murders and violent attacks on black people reportedly increased by 140 per cent. The death of 15 year old Rolan Adams, another victim of a racist gang, outraged many and shocked many into realising the extent of the danger of racism in it's midst. It lifted the curtain on the growing nightmare which the Black community had been living, hidden from the public gaze.

Rolan and his brother Nathan were attacked by 14 youths as they waited for a bus home one evening in February 1991. Nathan was hospitalised by blows to the head. Rolan suffered a severe knife wound to the neck, that tragically took his final breath before the ambulance could reach him. Rolan’s death, commemorated in February 1992 by a 7,000 strong march on the BNP headquarters.

All eight wreaths laid at the spot of Rolan’s death were burned, while the BNP issued leaflets congratulating the murderers for “defending their estate.” Rolan’s family was forced to abandon their home in the area by a hate campaign and family after family were driven out by threats, arson and physical assaults.

In 1989 the London Research Centre concluded that Greenwich had the fourth highest rate of racial harassment in London. By August 1991, it had risen to the top, with 79 cases registered in the six months after Rolan’s death. Victims included Vietnamese, Chinese, Cypriots, Sri Lankans, Kurds and Arabs.

On 10 July 1993 tragedy struck the Asian community, Rohit Duggal was stabbed to death by a white youth in Eltham. As in previous events, the youths responsible were released on bail within days. The area where Rohit was killed was daubed with BNP stickers and graffiti.

At the time, the Anti Racist Alliance highlighted the political connection with these attacks:

...coinciding with widely reported attacks on refugees in Rostock, East Germany, the Asian community was horrified by simultaneous firebomb attacks on the local mosque and temples. These were not random acts of violence; the perpetrators were well organised and even broke through outer walls to gain access. The timing and the well-prepared nature of the attacks clearly suggest connections with an organised political group.

Black people themselves, continue to resist the effects of racism in their everyday lives. The strategies which black people have incorporated include community and church-based welfare services, boycotts, strike action, black separatism, and determined attempts at integration.

The support of white allies has rarely been discouraged, but black people have learned to be sceptical of white activists and professionals who earn status and political credibility from their involvement in these struggles.
 
i wil repeat for every black person who suffers from organised fascists there are a 1000 or man y times more who suffer day in day out from capitalism and its affects .. lack of work ... lack of housing .. family break down .. drugs .. ASB ..

and in manchester as in london you must be aware of the massive level of black on black violence which here we are going thru a particularly high and sad level .. to reduce black peoples issues to facsism is imho daft ..

back in the 8ts groups like the Asian Youth Movement stated this ..

to concentrate on the symptoms of capital like the bnp is as dangerous in the long term for black people as for all of us
 
i wil repeat for every black person who suffers from organised fascists there are a 1000 or man y times more who suffer day in day out from capitalism and its affects .. lack of work ... lack of housing .. family break down .. drugs .. ASB ..

and in manchester as in london you must be aware of the massive level of black on black violence which here we are going thru a particularly high and sad level .. to reduce black peoples issues to facsism is imho daft ..

back in the 8ts groups like the Asian Youth Movement stated this ..

to concentrate on the symptoms of capital like the bnp is as dangerous in the long term for black people as for all of us

As said, black people themselves, continue to resist the effects of racism in their everyday lives. White activists and professionals dictating the terms of how black people organise against racism is condescending tosh.

As for your last point? You seem to be saying don't bother fighting racism, don't bother fighting poverty, don't bother fighting for your job, because these are symptoms of capitalism? Indeed they are and...?
 
?????? where did all this come from? i was talking about fascism and we get a list of the ways in which racism impacts on the lives of black people. This is completely the point I was making - it's fatuous to equate racism with fascism. They overlap, but they aren't the same thing. Racialising the fight against fascism, when it's really about class, is just the kind of divisive politics I've come to expect from the "middle-class" Left. Once upon a time the SWP was critical of ARA...

The support of white allies has rarely been discouraged, but black people have learned to be sceptical of white activists and professionals who earn status and political credibility from their involvement in these struggles.

Incidentally, this white person has learned to be sceptical of black activists and professionals who earn status and political credibility from their involvement in these struggles.

There's plenty who do it. They're middle-class, and of all races.

IMO we really need to define anti-fascism in terms of class oppression. You couldn't have offered a better example of the kind of woolly thinking on this issue that Durutti's been banging on about.
 
I certainly agree we need to define fascism in terms of class and that just because someone is Black doesn't mean they can't be middle class or supporting middle class politics.

But I fail to see how it is middle class to organise self-defence, to eject fascists from organising/leafletting, to disrupt their meetings and send them packing, to physically prevent them from assembling and to have mass demonstration and organise trade unionists to walk out and or boycott any council meeting or premises with fascist councillors present.

Of course the most important part of building anti-fascist politics is to build credible working class organisations capable of winning power- but part of this must be a ruthless determined campaign of physical self-defence to smash the fascists- I fail to see why saying this makes me suddenly middle class or my friends most of whom are proud of their class, the working class.
 
?????? where did all this come from? i was talking about fascism and we get a list of the ways in which racism impacts on the lives of black people.

geoff64 said:
...ARA (predominantly middle-class black nationalists) just because it was black-led, as if that really had anything to do with it...

You were the one who referred to a black people and how they organise and then you have the audacity to critice it too, because apparently, it was too middle class for your 'prolier than thou' bollocks.

Have you had any experience of how racism (aimed peredominantly at black people, they being the most visible target) impacts on people's lives then?

Why would they want to take any advice from you anyway - who for all they know is one of those 'activists' out to earn status and political credibility from involvement in their struggles?
 
Why would they want to take any advice from you anyway - who for all they know is one of those 'activists' out to earn status and political credibility from involvement in their struggles?

But I wasn't talking about racism. I was suggesting that when fighting fascism black people don't have a moral monopoly on the strategy. Black people fighting racism can organise themselves and elicit support from whites should they want to (and, of course, I think they should...). I have spent most of my politically active life supporting the victims of racism in one form or another - blacks and Asians and Jews in Newham in the 1990's; through trade union activity, etc. (forgive me for having to defend myself in this respect.)

I thought this thread was about fascism, which is predominantly about class oppression (irrespective of race). When I was in the SWP, at least prior to the re-launch of the ANL in the early 90's, the class aspect of fascism was well understood. It seems that this aspect has been forgotten, and fascism and racism have been equated. IMO that's a mistake ...

I'm not opposed to anti-racist campaigning, and it does overlap with anti-fascist work, but there's a wider strategy. I want to convince the white working class that the fight against fascism is in their self-interest and not just a question of acting on behalf of black people suffering from the effects of racism - which let's face it - is a more day-to-day reality than the prospect of fascists taking power...
 
Yes, I seem to recall one of the leading lights of ARA was a certain Lee Jasper



'Incidentally, this white person has learned to be sceptical of black activists and professionals who earn status and political credibility from their involvement in these struggles.

There's plenty who do it. They're middle-class, and of all races.'
 
Yes, I seem to recall one of the leading lights of ARA was a certain Lee Jasper

Was he? Marc Wadsworth was National Secretary of ARA.

Lee Jasper is close to Livingstone isn't he?

Interesting to note then that the Anti-Racist Alliance was brought to the brink of collapse at the end of 1994 by a war of words between Ken Livingstone and Marc Wadsworth.

Livingstone claimed Wadsworth was trying to run the Alliance as his fiefdom; Wadsworth countered that Livingstone was a "white supremacist".

Such acrimony, only undermines the ability of groups to provide positive leadership and a focal point for sections of the black community still disadvantaged and unrepresented.
 
Such acrimony, only undermines the ability of groups to provide positive leadership and a focal point for sections of the black community still disadvantaged and unrepresented.

again, indeed.

And perhaps you will then acknowledge that self-serving politicians - of whatever race - can and do damage the cause of anti-racism and, where it overlaps, of anti-fascism; and that, therefore, it is not the racial profile of "leadership" but the ideas and strategy that are of significance.

That said, can we debate the future of anti-fascist strategy without racialising it?

That was my original point...
 
again, indeed.

And perhaps you will then acknowledge that self-serving politicians - of whatever race - can and do damage the cause of anti-racism and, where it overlaps, of anti-fascism; and that, therefore, it is not the racial profile of "leadership" but the ideas and strategy that are of significance.

That said, can we debate the future of anti-fascist strategy without racialising it?

That was my original point...

Fair enough, but are you not confusing strategy with tactics here?
 
As for your last point? You seem to be saying don't bother fighting racism, don't bother fighting poverty, don't bother fighting for your job, because these are symptoms of capitalism? Indeed they are and...?

yes precisely .. this is exactly my point .. and you have agree with it

yes of course you OPPOSE these but you do NOT define yourself by them unless you are a liberal .. ( anti racism is usually non class based.. anti poverty similarly )

so do you call yourself a 'anti racist anti fascist anti poverty pro jobist'???? no of course you do not .. that is idiotic .. all these, and more, are, as you say, symptoms .. it is the cause that needs dealing with .. all these issues need to be dealt collectively ..

so call yourself a socialist and anti capitalist or anarchist .. :)
 
yes precisely .. this is exactly my point .. and you have agree with it

yes of course you OPPOSE these but you do NOT define yourself by them unless you are a liberal .. ( anti racism is usually non class based.. anti poverty similarly )

so do you call yourself a 'anti racist anti fascist anti poverty pro jobist'???? no of course you do not .. that is idiotic .. all these, and more, are, as you say, symptoms .. it is the cause that needs dealing with .. all these issues need to be dealt collectively ..

so call yourself a socialist and anti capitalist or anarchist .. :)

Anti-racism 'non classed based'? No working class organisation worthy of the name would accept it within it's ranks.

The rest of your post looks to be esoteric, ultra-left code and is alarmingly bereft of any political substance. You appear to be have a deeply confused political identity too, not being able to define yourself as a 'socialist and anti capitalist or anarchist' for example.

When you make your mind up what you're gonna call yourself what next?
 
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