Anti-semitism in Europe

[rachamim18]

Frog (again): "Nordau, a Zionist who said Jews were like Bacteria.": See, here is what happens when you do not read the person's work but instead rely on fringe nonsense. You are in luck though Frog. You can read ALL his major works on the Project Guttenberg site, the project that digitizes works not subject to current cCopyright Law and makes them freely accessible online. His name by the way was "Max Nordau," at least his nom de guerre. Your quote has nothing to do with Zionism and was a polemic written prior to the Drefus Affair, the seminal event that turned many a Jew, Nordau included, into ardent Zionists.

As for "Anti-Semites (sic) being right because theyr are right," I have no clue what you are on about.


Your usage of Herzl's Diary is completely useless because you have never even seen it but instead rely on Propaganda sites to form opinions. Do yourself a favour and get a copy, or else stop claiming it says things it does not. Choice of course is yours but I would hope you value your integrity.

As for the quotes you attribute to Zionists, not one was taken in context and so again, useless.

One great example is the first one about how "being a Jew is a dog's life. "The author was absolutely correct in that Jews living in Europe WERE living like dogs. HE was not however saying, as you seem to imply, that Jews were dogs, etc. The rest of the quores are similarly useless as rendered by you.

"Jews are parsites." That is how they were treated and that was the context, not that they actually were parsitic. I do not know if you are really that gullible but I hope not.

As for the rest, it is all the same. You grabbed pieces, probably because that was all your sources used, but I would hope that you realise that quotes must be compelte and in context. I can take 5 words from anyone and make them look anyway I want. Without context it is utterly devoid of meaning.

I do wish to adress the last comment you used though, about " lack of Anti-Semtism (sic) being dangerous for Jews' eternal life." It is absolutely true. The author wondered that were it to disappear, would Jews be able to sruvive. He, and many others including myself recognise that Jewish divisiveness is a far worse threat than ignoramuses hatred ever could be and were that ignorance to disappear, Jews would most likely fight themselves into exintction.

Given your opinions one sees his rationale perfectly. So you keep living in the land that gave the world the Catsle of York and Cromwell, snug in your self righteousness when you have one foot over the peripice every day of the week. One nation on Earth will never spit on you for being Jewish and like it or not, that is the truth.


Frog's Next Post: "Israeli is one of the most disgusting regimes on the planet.": How can you think that when you know next to nothing about it OR Zionism? You are running on empty. You seem to hate yourself more than anything.


What is rich is this. Diego, and many others surrely, read your BS and come away feeling that their fantasies about "money grubbing Jews who control the media to further their disgusting country of Israel" are confirmed! Then, you turn around and castigate poor Diego for thinking such things! THEN, you tell him how much you hate Israel and how disgusting it is . You really have no clue do you? You actually do not see what you are doing?


Less this be construed as trying to tell you not to criticise Israel, absolutely NOT. I welcome actual criticism as opposed to halfbaked propaganda snippets that you snatch off fringe sites. You lead people into hatred and then call them on it. There is a word for that you know. Think before you talk, or post as the case may be.


Frog's Next Post After That: "There is probably more Anti-Semitism (sic) in the world than ever before because of Israel's terrible actions...": In other words, blame thevictim (again you do that). In other words, if a woman in a tank top and shorts is raped, it is because she dressed provacatively, right? What you are doing is rationalising anti-Jewishness. You imagine that it is worse now than in the Crusades? The Holocaust? The Inquistion? The Roman Empire?


Anti-Jewishness has existed since ancient Egypt (one of the first pogroms took place against the Jews of Alexandria in Greco-Egypt), It did not exist then because of a Jewish Nation and does not exist now because of it. It exists because Jews have lived among non-Jews. Sad as that is, it is the absolute truth. Israel does not endanger Jews. The exact opposite.

When the Jews of the Balkans faced extermination during the break up of Yugoslavia, who rescued them? You and your Liberal "TEMPLE"? When the Jews of Chechnya faced annihilation, who saced them? Your "Anti-Zionist" Jews? When the Jews of Ethiopia, Sudan, Libya, Yemen and countless others had no place to go one place took them in - Israel.


The world will hate Jews with or without Israel. Given that actual fact I for one would much rather have a fighting chance. Tell you what, you go lay down for the whiteman, bow your head and mutter "Danke Herr" over and over as they snatch your family from you but forgive me if I choose instead to stand strong in the land of my ancestors. Hoep it will not impose on you too much.


What sad and bitter BS you are into. I suggest you go study Evian and the tell us how Israel endangers Jews. Actually I believe Panda said that as well not too long ago but I am sure he will argue that one, par for the course. This from a woman living in the bosom of a nation that shat on her People, her own family.

Diego: "Jews fake the amount of anti-Jewishness in the world to hide their own devious crimes.": WOW, the irony is breathtaking. I am sure in your advanced state of intelligence though you could not help but fail to realise just how poignant your statement really is, unless you aim for satire and parody which of course you do NOT. Thanks for the laugh though.


But wait! IT gets even better!!!

"Zionist led media.": Are you for real? You must be aiming for comedy. Nobody could be THAT stupid. Complaining about Jews saying people hate them, while you hate Jews. You are precious Diego! I bet your parents are real proud. Keep them coming though. You are a recruitment poster for the WZO. Mind if I use your blurbs at the next "Elders of Zion" coven? While we sharpen our horns we love to get belly laughs from astute folks like you!


Panda: "Herzl was one step away from Jabotinsky's 'Blood and Soil'.": Except that you understand neither man. Are you going to recite Nino's speech on how Jabotinsky was pro-Nazi?

 

[rachamim18]

Another Frog Production: "Begin's slogan of 'One People, One Army, One Government'.": I lived in Israel when he ruled and I do not recall ever hearing anything like that. in addition I have studied the man in great detail. Pray tell, where and when did he make this quote? I mean, it is all academic since it means absolutely nothing anyway but I am interested in the answer.

What do you find distasteful about it? One People? It is a fact. One Govt.? Well, as it is now, absolutely true. One Army? How many would you like? Or is it just character assasination for the sake of it?

"A long excerpt from Amos Kenan's 'Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle-East.": You do not even know the actual title Frog! Do you not yet see the problem with researching via half-as#ed sources? If you HAD actually researched you would know what the actual source you claim really is! Kenan was a Sharon spokesperson!!! Here you are imagining he is some anti-Zionist icon!


What you chose to quote is simply an article from a magazine , now defunct, called HaOlam HaZeh (it basically means "This World" or alternatively "This is the World"). The magazine was a joke! It regularly published made up stories about imagined atrocities involving Israelis and in one article, they blamed a platoon of whom the majority stromed the magazine's offices and beat 4 staff members almost to death for lying and impuning their honour.


Subject to incessant lawsuits for libel and plain old fraud they had to close shoppe in 1993. After they closed it was revealed that they had been financed by a competing tabloid which had engaged in "Wars" with them in order to boost each other's sales!!! TOTAL FRAUD! The article created a firestorm in Israel and got Kenan fired from his job as a reporter at the paper Yehidot Ahranot'. The reason? IT was fabricated, OF COURSE. It was supposed to have been an event in the 1967 War.

In reality there was of course an Arab village called Beit Sura (not to be confused with as Sura, which is a village near Hebron), and Beit Sura WAS destroyed. However, there were no residents in it or near it when it happened, and was destroyed because it was a squatter village populated with no history and had been built on land they did not own, by people who rose up when the war took place and tried to aid the enemy.

Using what he called "poetic liscence (his poems suck too)," Kenan wrote this little diddy. Problem however is that memories are a whole lot fresher than they are about 1948 and so he was unmasked the same week!


Since then the article has been a staple in Jihadi circles and can usually be found on terrorist related sites, etc. I hope that is not where you are hanging out, not that it is wrong to learn from it but you , no offence, certainly do not have the breadth of scope (yet) to understand what you are reading. You are simply aping whatever negative propaganda you find instead of verifying the materiel which should always be your first course of action.


"How can people believe that Israel is a Jewish State?": Because it is. Ever hear of the Law of Return? The 1 million Jewish refugees who lost more than 1 Billion US in 1948 value from Arab lands, Jews whom no country would touch, but all of whom were taken in no questions asked by Israel? entire Jewish Communities airlifted by Israel? Israelis risking their lives to bring them to Israel? I myself worked on Operation Shlomo (Solomon) in a Sudanese Camp in Darfur years ago to bring Beta Yisroel ( Ethiopian Jews) who had been starving to death and actually were being enslaved in a country where they had lived since Biblical days. How safe do you imagine yourself to be in a country that has only allowed Jews, scratch that, TOLERATED Jews for 400 years!?


"People that have studied the Jewish Religion, how can they believe Israel is the Jewish Nation?": So now you are an expert in Jewish Religion? No offence but a person who thinks the Gaon was pro-Chassidic really ought to be careful about the way she talks.


You ewant to see something pretty cool? Go research the Jewish Poet Yehudah HaLevi (Judah Ha Levi) who lived in Spain more than 1000 years ago. Read his poem "Longing For Zion," as it is written in English. "My body is in the west, my heart dwells in the East forevermore..." MODERN Zionism is only the latest evolution of an ancient longing, repeated 3 times a day by RELIGOUS JEWS, for 2000 years, since the Exile. Please learn of your Peoples' faith before expounding on it Sister.

"Israel laughs in the face of the Torah's values...": Please Frog, I really do not want to insult you over and over but you force my hand. You do not have the faintest inkling what Judaisim is about, on any level. I seriously do not mean to belittle you but you are making very specific statements and other ignorant people just might think you have it down pat. They deserve the truth.

Israel IS a secular nation. However, from kosher food, to Shabbat, to businesses being fined for operating on Jewish holidays, to the Civil Court system being based on Halacha Israel is more true to Torah than 100 of your Liberal "Temples." A 10 year old Israeli child educated in public schools ( "public" in the Israeli sense which means State operated, not in the English sense) knows more Torah than one of your Liberal woman "rabbis."


Torah is taught in public schools as Jewish History, aside actual Jewish History , and given proper context. Observant Jews are not belittled for differing levels of Observance (although this was not always true in the Army, and now even that has changed).

There is an imperfect balance but it is the best it can possibly be under the circumstances.

That is academic however since you have ignored a basic truth: Israel is the land of the JEWISH PEOPLE. Judaisim is a religion. One can be an Atheist and be Jewish. That is the beauty of Israel.




"What would Maimonides, Gaon, and other great Jewish religious figures say if they saw Israel in Action.": Sigh...It does not give me pleasure to have to teach a Sister in this fashion. You really have no idea do you? Ever hear of Amalek? Tell you what, I will be gentle. Read Amalek in B'reshit, what you might call "Genesis." Read it and then let me know just what you imagine Judiaism to be.


If you want some more interesting reading, check out Dina, Simon, Levi and Prince of Shechem (in English it will be Genesis 34) - as well as the story of Midia (in English it will be Numbers 25). These are the foundations of our faith. Read, internalise, and then recognise that on the Tribe of Simon's Flag , was the seal of the city of Shechem. When you realise that, it should be very clear to you how mistaken you are.

Fantasies are great but reality is the greatest.

"What is truly disgusting is how many people get taken in by this fiction!": HOW TRUE, only you fail to understand just what is fiction.

Do you think, that had Beit Sura really happened, many would have spoken on it? You yourself said that "many tried to stop it." According to Kenan people were crying, yes? Where are the villagers? Where are the veterans of that platoon? Kind of funny how only a half as#ed poet trying to turn a buck seems to have remembered anything. Might funny when you realise that just after he lost his job for the article (because it was false), he took a job as a Sharon spokesman!!!

"Why does the Chief Rabbi in England not speak out against Israeli actions.": Gee, let me try and break it down for you: THERE IS NOTHING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST. Unlike you, he knows his religion, and he knows what happens in Israel. Unlike you, he has undoubtedly been there and seen things for himself.


Does it occur to you yet that only 2% of World Jewry shares your opposition? 2%. That includes the Karta nutjobs, committed Commies, and fringe jobbers. A whopping 2%. Sort of like the 400 IDF Refuseniks in all of our history, out of literally 3.5 million Inductees since 1948. Every society has ignoramuses, people off kilter, and so on. Only Israel has to hear their nutjobs spewing gibberish out of the mouths of avowed enemies. Oh well, things could be worse. We could always never have had our homeland back.

"Israelis take the lead!": First off, that would only be commonsense, IF it were true. Who else but Israelis should take the lead in changing their nation? You, a person who knows nothing of it and has never even been there? On the other hand, contrary to your thinking, most Israelis support their govt. Indeed, in 2006 even Leftists supported the War. The complaints were on execution, not existence. I think you seriously need to research these issues and then perhaps reeevaluate your beliefs.

At least you care though, and that IS a start. I suppose you have never had much exposure to real Jewish Communities (PLEASE do not tell me about being Liberal) and as such you have been coming to your own conclusions. England being the home of the BBC and the Guardian it is no surpise then that you have these unfounded beliefs.

 

[nino_savatte]

I wouldn't mind if this stuff was well-written but it isn't; it's just stream-of-consciousness rambling. The true idea behind it is "I'll spew out thousands of words. That way, people will be really impressed with my knowledge" But it's all for show.

 

[frogwoman]

At least you care though, and that IS a start. I suppose you have never had much exposure to real Jewish Communities (PLEASE do not tell me about being Liberal) and as such you have been coming to your own conclusions. England being the home of the BBC and the Guardian it is no surpise then that you have these unfounded beliefs.

LOL

 

[frogwoman]

what's weird is that people like rachamim continue to believe fictional accounts such as that of joan peters whose "sources" are plagiarised wholesale from various zionist propaganda tracts, whereas there is vast amounts of documented evidence from human rights organisations, the british government, the american government, historians (including zionist historians such as benny morris), reports from the time, eyewitness accounts, memorandums, reports by the IDF, by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ITSELF, the diaries of people like theodor herzl, ben gurion, begin, and so on, all saying the SAME THING - but somehow it's all wrong. its all anti-semitic propaganda!

the israeli government, the idf, amnesty international, the british government, the US state department, and just about every historian who has written on this topic, are all in a MASSIVE CONSPIRACY with the palestinians, (oh, I mean the "Palestinians") to discredit and destroy the state of Israel

and they control the media too!

Remind you of anything?

 

[nino_savatte]

what's weird is that people like rachamim continue to believe fictional accounts such as that of joan peters whose "sources" are plagiarised wholesale from various zionist propaganda tracts, whereas there is vast amounts of documented evidence from human rights organisations, the british government, the american government, historians (including zionist historians such as benny morris), reports from the time, eyewitness accounts, memorandums, reports by the IDF, by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ITSELF, the diaries of people like theodor herzl, ben gurion, begin, and so on, all saying the SAME THING - but somehow it's all wrong. its all anti-semitic propaganda!

the israeli government, the idf, amnesty international, the british government, the US state department, and just about every historian who has written on this topic, are all in a MASSIVE CONSPIRACY with the palestinians, (oh, I mean the "Palestinians") to discredit and destroy the state of Israel

and they control the media too!

Remind you of anything?

Yep, I would say that he's working for the Israeli Ministry for Information but his line is far more extreme than that. In some ways, he is such a caricature that I even sometimes doubt whether he's actually Jewish. I've seen fash posing as rabid Zionists before.

 

[ViolentPanda]

LOL

Patronising, isn't he?

 

[frogwoman]

Yep, I would say that he's working for the Israeli Ministry for Information but his line is far more extreme than that. In some ways, he is such a caricature that I even sometimes doubt whether he's actually Jewish. I've seen fash posing as rabid Zionists before.

and the justifications for peters' ludicrous "research" remind me of the old ... "it's a forgery, but who cares? It's still true"

oh and apparently, israeli checkpoints are part of yasser arafat's plan to control the media

 

[rachamim18]

Frog: "It is amazing that people like Rachamim continue to believe fictionalised accounts like Ms. Peters'.": See, here is the thing. I not only gave you a very thorough explanation proving her contention was correct, but even throughly sourced it for you.


Yet, you completely ignored each and everything I wrote, and continue with some deluded and unfounded nonsense. It does not matter what Ms. Peters did or did not do, her claim is correct. Unlike you, I have actual data, and what's more I provided it. IF you are going to speak on it it would behoove you to take that data into consideration and either confirm it or disprove it FACTUALLY, not by words you see on a fringe site.


Let us so do this rather simply: DO YOU DISPUTE MY DATA ON THE 500% INCREASE in "Palestinians" since 1870 to 1948? 70% from 1870 to 1914?

IF you do, please provide the factual data that shows this to be wrong. This can be done very easily with Census, Survey, and other Govt. Data .Cannot get more simple than that. It is not about hyperbole but actual facts.

"Lots of facts, like diaries, yada, yada, and super yada.": Again, you do not read Hebrew, Yiddish, OR German so what would make you think you know one iota of what is said in Gurion, Herz'l, or any other early Modern Zionst's correspondance? Something a fringe site says? Something a Left Wing source claims Morris says? I have addresed these fantasies time and time again.


I respond in minute detail showing just why the information presented is totally wrong, and then you (et al) simply throw a sentence or two insulting me, but not confronting anything I said, and then present a totally new and erroneous viewpoint. See, there is a thing called integrity, and I am not trying to talk down to you, but the fact of the matter is, you are playing games. You raised many points, I addressed ALL OF THEM. You failed to answer a single rebuttal.




You are preaching to people how evil a certain ideology is whan you yourself do not have the faintest idea what it consists of? What do you do when confronted with information showing you to be at least 180 degrees removed from the faintst truth? You pop off a cutesy "LOL" or dismissive insult. "People like Rach (sic)." Tell you what Sister, people like me are committed to principles because they have explored the dynamic inside out. Unlike 99% of the people you will ever meet, I have lived it to the fullest. I actually offered my life for it and the lives of my children. To me it is not an internet contest in besting some person I have never met, but rather an attempt at discourse so as to expand my own world, as well as to enlighten others who have no idea what is going on, or who otherwise might never have an opportunity to build with a person holding my viewpoint.


Zionism is no more the bogeyman than any other form of Nationalism. If one is an Anarchist, Bravo. Otherwise, even if a Communist, they are spewing hypocrisy of the greatest magnitude. Stalin was a staunch Nationalist, so was Mao. All that "Workers of the World" shi% was for the birds and they new it.

Anarchy, the only ideology (actually a pseudo-ideology) that makes sense for a rabid opponent of Nationalism, is totally counter-intuitive on any level. It is deluded and fantasist. My favorite are the Primitivists, but that is another subject at this point.


The whole purpose of this reponse is to try and encourage you to respond in a sensible way. Either you are totally out of touch, or alternatively, you are manipulating. I do not purport to know which, nor is that crucial to my life, but if one will respond to your points, it would be the adult thing for you to build on that response.

I wish to clairfy: It is "adult" not out of civility or politeness. It is adult because you rise very strong viewpoints, are faced with facts that prove your points to be completely baseless and then you turn around and shift gears like an actress who forgot her lines, hoping noone will notice the flub.


"Peters is a plagiarist, she was off kilter with her info..." And yet I proved her info not only right but perhaps a bit too conservative! I did so with actual Ottoman and British data from the relevant time periods, as well as with 4 published works in mainstream science that all utilised them! The response? "LOL." That is fine, but then it MIGHT be a smart thing to stop disparaging people for using info provided by Ms. Peters...as well as to stop disparaging Ms. Peters herself since she happened to have provided very astute points.


As for your second post, in laughing about "Arab Conspiracies," you do not have the faintest clue what is taking place so the intelligent thing would be to explore the issues before disparaging others. Conspiracy? I do not know a single Jew, nor have heard of one who has ever claimed that. I do know though that there is an immense amount of hatred in the world against the Jewish People AND the Jewish Religion. This almost pathological hatred, over the course of 2.5 millenia now, has resulted in many millions of deaths. So, for a person such as yourself to then poke fun that Jews are foolish to think that odds are against them is just obnoxious to no end, besides being incredibly ignorant and naive.


You do not need to speak, read, and write Arabic to get the jist of what is going on in the Arab World. There are plenty of sites, published sources, and even original sources themselves who makes their thoughts accessible for ohters to experience. One can simply go to a common pop culture avenue like Youtube and see hatred of Jews taken to dizzying heights. Please do avail yourself to this infromation. Not only will it help you form more sensible viewpoints but will do an immemse amount of good towards protecting you.



Hitler did not give shi& what you thought. Whether you despised Zionism or were Herz'l reincarnated he would kill you. Same thing is true for almost every other Jew Hater. HAMAS does not care what sympathies you have Frog, they wish to exterminate you and while in merry ol' England this might seem like a total non-issue, know that history changes on a dime and you might actually learn the truth whether you choose to or not.


This week alone there were major anti Jewish acts of hatred and/or violence in 4 separate nations that I know of. Not even a week but just since Monday! That is not even beginning to talk about the Arab World! So, while you sit there popping smiley faces, remember that 60 years ago Jews were being gassed like rats, that less than 10 years ago Jews were getting crosses forcibly tatooed on their faces, and today Jewish graves are being defiled, houses of worship are being firebombed and defaced. Cute, yes?



I will close by asking you a final question. What does it matter if one person did something wrong, if the information was correct? You dismiss that point in your last post but do not explain why. IF she was wrong in form, and I imagine you like me have never read it, why would it matter when she was absolutely right in substance?

 

[Detroit City]

I want to pose a question which i struggle to understand. what is the real reason for so much anti-Jewishism in Europe over the centuries.

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

 

[two sheds]

have you seen my multiple choice quiz yet?

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8302444&postcount=16

*adds self to list of people who love froggy*

 

[two sheds]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

What do you feel is the reason so many people dislike the USA?

 

[frogwoman]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

 

[badco]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

Don't be shy

 

[spring-peeper]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

As a teenager, I was a live-in housekeeper for a Jewish family and had a really bad experience. It wasn't just them, but all of their friends as well. When I started working, I had a Jewish boss who treated everyone in his department in the same disrespectful way that I was treated at the other job.

It would be really, really easy to decide that, based on my experiences, that all Jews treat gentiles with distain and mock them in yiddish solely for their amusement.

I'm really sorry that your experiences, though the same as mine, lead you to believe that "all" Jews are that way. It's not, btw. There are some really nice, kind and gentle people who practice that religion. I hope that you take the time to go and find this out for yourself.

 

[Dillinger4]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

No, go on, Detroit City.

Tell us the legitimate reason you have for disliking Jewish people.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

So you think the Nazis had legitimate reasons for hating the Jews. What a charmer.

 

[audiotech]

I would give my opinion but i'd rather keep it to myself but i will say that people in general don't dislike others unless there is a damn good reason for it...

I've decided I don't like you and the reason is this ^. Good enough reason?

 

[rachamim18]

I am glad people say things like this. You validate Zionism every day of the year. Keep up the good work!


Frog: I want to remind you that I took the time to answer your "survey" in depth but you have failed to address a single issue. So, instead of reminding folks you have asked questions, why not do a novel thing? Deal with the answers.