Anti-Fascists attack 'BNP' WMCs, Pubs etc

[belboid]

the vast majority of whom (I would guess) weren't going to pick Labour in the end anyway, and the rally gave an excuse. Thy knew the tories were evil shites, but couldn't bring themselves to go for labour

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not sure about that Belboid, Kinnock's hubris at the Sheffield Rally did put off many undecided and floating voters.

What put people off wasn't so much Kinnock and what he said, as the way the media span what he said.
If you compare a verbatim account to the media representations there's a world of difference.

(And I'm no Kinnock fan either, but he got stitched up for Sheffield)

 

[ViolentPanda]

the vast majority of whom (I would guess) weren't going to pick Labour in the end anyway, and the rally gave an excuse. Thy knew the tories were evil shites, but couldn't bring themselves to go for labour

Yep, although the fairly relentless demonisation of Labour by the Murdoch press, Associated Newspapers etc from the early to mid 80s onward, didn't help on that score.

 

[thelibrarian]

wow, that's either one motherfucker of an egg, or one motherfucker of a load of shit. And, shock horror, its the latter.

The egg was a total irrelevance, as was the Sheffield rally. Most people are not so fucking dumb as to make their minds up based on things so utterly trivial.

Why did the Labour party move swiftly to expel the culprit then. Why does the left always downplay the bad effects of violence when it is seen to have been counterproductive but in other instances like the poll tax rioys always trumpet it up and boast how it made things happenl?

The failure of the poll tax was simply down to it's unworkability- with only forty percent payment rates largely by ordinary people who simply couldn't pay. No normal person in Britain was proud of the sight of class war militants hurling staves through the windows of police wagons. If they were then why didn't they vote for the people of class war in the few elections it stood in at the time?

i mean there is a certain wry satisfaction in hooligans damaging porsches and jaguars but when they showed that leader with the beard from class war going into a yuppie pub and throwing a glass of beer in some innocent bewidered drinker's face as a political statement I felt a bit disgusted. Needless to say he didn't pick the biggest guy in the pub and don't you know we all had to wear ties and even suits at the time even those of us in shit office skivvy jobs.

 

[belboid]

you miss the point (unsurprisingly). I was largely objecting to your totally false and hyperbolic claim that Major had 'blood on his face'. He didnt. He had egg on it. Why are you so keen to ludicrously exaggerate such violence?

The thing about the poll tax riot, was not that everyone loved it and thought it was the sexiest thing on the planet - they didnt, iirr, a poll afterwards found something like 4% of the population thought it was entirely justified, but thats all (still, nigh on a million people). the thing about the riot was that it showed that there was no way the opposition was going to go away, it proved that the -payment was a mass mass issue and would win. It was only 'unworkable' because of the opposition to it

 

[d.a.s.h]

The thing about the poll tax riot, was not that everyone loved it and thought it was the sexiest thing on the planet - they didnt, iirr, a poll afterwards found something like 4% of the population thought it was entirely justified,

An opinion poll carried out by the Independent newspaper had 50-something % of respondents agreeing with the statement that the poll tax riot was 'understandable'.

 

[thelibrarian]

you miss the point (unsurprisingly). I was largely objecting to your totally false and hyperbolic claim that Major had 'blood on his face'. He didnt. He had egg on it. Why are you so keen to ludicrously exaggerate such violence?

The thing about the poll tax riot, was not that everyone loved it and thought it was the sexiest thing on the planet - they didnt, iirr, a poll afterwards found something like 4% of the population thought it was entirely justified, but thats all (still, nigh on a million people). the thing about the riot was that it showed that there was no way the opposition was going to go away, it proved that the -payment was a mass mass issue and would win. It was only 'unworkable' because of the opposition to it

yes he did man. I saw the picture in the daily mail. His face was cut. It was his gimmick at the time to stand on that soap box and take the voter's flack. Seeing him receiving an assault and dabbing slight blood -those wavering voters who saw the pictures might then well say right he's stood there and had his ass kicked, unlike other politicians and as he comes across as quite personally decent and truth be told we don't really think much of Kinnoch and the labour lot at the end of the day so we might just not be averse to voting for him now afterall.

 

[tbaldwin]

That myth regularly gets trotted out.

The Tories got rid of Thatcher and the Poll Tax because they knew that if they didn't they would lose the next general election. They would lose the next general election because the Poll Tax and Thatcher were very unpopular. It was opinion polls and talking to constituents etc that told the Tories that.

The large demonstration against the Poll Tax and the ensuing riots, of which some people are so inordinately proud, were other results of the unpopularity of Thatcher and the Poll Tax. That's all.

I dont agree. I think the riots were part of why Thatcher lost the support of big business and sections of the media....They were not just worried that they may lose the election under her but worried what would happen if they won!
The poll tax made them think she had gone too far and they got rid of her.

They might be happy enough to see people in Indonesia rioting but in the west end or city of london? I dont think so....

 

[belboid]

yes he did man. I saw the picture in the daily mail. His face was cut.

funny how saiud photo, and all reference to blood seems now to have disappeared from tinternet. Plenty of stuff on the egg throwing (in Luton) - nut no mention of blood! Perhaps the Mail had a filter on to make yellow turn into red

 

[durruti02]

I seem to recall a press conference given by Lecomber and Tyndall in the Spring of 94 when Lecomber announced the "No Punch Ups, No Marches" change of tact. It seemed to go under the radar then and nobody took it seriously at the time - except, I remember, some people around AFA and RA who told me it was a key event and signalled a 'sea change' in fascist/anti-fascist politics. I'm certainly no AFA/RA acolyte but if you go back and re-read at lot of their publications of around that time they were remarkably prescient. To my mind, they were the first to signal White WC alienation from Labour (this was back in the f*cking early 90's!) and the corresponding rise in the BNP.

This was a key time for all concerned and merits more analysis.

spot on

and joe reilly ... i have looked for the key afa / pre IWCA docs from the time, online and cannot find them ... do you have any links???

 

[thelibrarian]

funny how saiud photo, and all reference to blood seems now to have disappeared from tinternet. Plenty of stuff on the egg throwing (in Luton) - nut no mention of blood! Perhaps the Mail had a filter on to make yellow turn into red

Well just take it from me then- why are you arguing anyway? try the daily mail archives.

 

[thelibrarian]

I can't find it either. Perhaps the daily mail was making pathos of it to milk it for all they could in which case it underlines the point that aggressive leftwing style tactics aren't a vote winner. The same applied to the miner's strike and quite possibly the poll tax riot. Even supposing the rioters got rid of the poll tax, they didn't get rid of the Tory government, which presumably was Class war or Militant's real agenda. The poll tax gone people re-elected the Tories against all the odds as opposed to surging in support of leftwing revolutionaries.

The fact is people deeply distrust political violence and any group which advocates that use of tactics. People know that when there is violence there is inequity in life. People ask themselves that if a person is prepared to hurl a stave through a police wagon or plant a bomb in a street, what might happen were I to get on the wrong side of them in a pub argument.

 

[lights.out.london]

Size Of An Egg!

 

[thelibrarian]

hehehe shows what happens to all round good eggs in life.

 

[lights.out.london]

lol

 

[thelibrarian]

The chicken that hatches there will sure give a nasty peck.

Kinnoch's Nurembourg rally in Sheffield? The problem was it showed him up to be a dolt as he was being portrayed in Spitting image at the time. It was like Hague being pictured wearing a base ball cap backwards -a significant lapse in judgement which destroyed their attempts to ever be accepted as potential statesman. It's more important to be respected in a prime ministeral candidate as Thatcher showed- than to be likeable.

 

[miktheword]

I can't find it either. Perhaps the daily mail was making pathos of it to milk it for all they could in which case it underlines the point that aggressive leftwing style tactics aren't a vote winner. The same applied to the miner's strike and quite possibly the poll tax riot. Even supposing the rioters got rid of the poll tax, they didn't get rid of the Tory government, which presumably was Class war or Militant's real agenda. The poll tax gone people re-elected the Tories against all the odds as opposed to surging in support of leftwing revolutionaries.

The fact is people deeply distrust political violence and any group which advocates that use of tactics. People know that when there is violence there is inequity in life. People ask themselves that if a person is prepared to hurl a stave through a police wagon or plant a bomb in a street, what might happen were I to get on the wrong side of them in a pub argument.

the opinion poll support for the miners was at its highest (50%) just after the battle of Orgreave.

 

[thelibrarian]

the opinion poll support for the miners was at its highest (50%) just after the battle of Orgreave.

hrmm if that's true then it's maybe because the police were seen as using violent tactics themslves. Had the media shown an image of a policeman lying on the ground beaten and bloodied, their mood would have swiftly turned against the miners.

 

[butchersapron]

hrmm if that's true then it's maybe because the police were seen as using violent tactics themslves. Had the media shown an image of a policeman lying on the ground beaten and bloodied, their mood would have swiftly turned against the miners.

Maybe not though eh? Your record on the political use of images is not acually that hot - basing you main point on one that doesn't exist.

And what do yoy you mean 'if'? The BBC showed the miners attacking the police first when exact opposite happened, as the BBC were later forced to aplogise for. There were bloody coppers all over the show, the BBC made sure of that.

thelibrarian...hmmm as fuck

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Maybe not though eh? Your record on the political use of images is not acually that hot - basing you main point on one that doesn't exist.

And what do yoy you mean 'if'? The BBC showed the miners attacking the police first when exact opposite happened, as the BBC were later forced to aplogise for. There were bloody coppers all over the show, the BBC made sure of that.

thelibrarian...hmmm as fuck

woah, i haven't seen someone get pwnd that badly for DAYS!