Anti-Fascists attack 'BNP' WMCs, Pubs etc

[tarannau]

Suggesting that a NF pub will become more popular after being targeted, the community pitching in for new windows, goes well beyond questioning its effects though, doesn't it Balders?

It more than implies support if I'm honest, I keep on asking about Treelover's logic behind mentioning that, or any real world example of such support, by he seems to have lost his nuts and tongue.

 

[_angel_]

You don't think one bod's making apologies and showing some remarkable logic then Angel. How convenient.

In your area, when a well known racist pub has been targeted, do people around the wider community rally around and start supporting the pub more, fixing the windows and forgetting what goes on in there? Or is it the same entrenched racist nags who go in there, same as before.

I don't think anyone is making apologies for the BNP and to try and say so is quite a nasty smear.

I don't know 'any well known racist pubs' if I was aware of such place in my area I would boycott it, not vandalise it.

I do think tactics are the key here. If anti facists appear to be acting like thugs then it only provides an own goal to the BNP.

Leafleting/ heckling BNP meetings, challenging them.. boycotting pubs used for meetings all seem preferable tactics to simply smashing them.

 

[tarannau]

I repeat: would you think that people would rally around the BNP pubs in support afterwards though, fitting new windows and generally disregarding what went on in there?

Certainly not my experience when BNP pubs have been targeted in this way - George (I think) down the Front Line, Brixton, Lords in Mitcham and so on. Widespread revulsion to the bullies, wankers and racists in the pubs - largely celebrations when their venues were removed, without some kind of rallying-around window-fitting street party happening afterwards.

I'm trying to get to the botttom of why Treelover would make such a remarkable assertion and what his logic is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

tarranau, you should be banned for those insults, post reported

Who the fuck died and made you a moderator?

 

[ViolentPanda]

is it? no .. i really do think it is an irrelevance .. it takes our eyes of the real target ; it has a confused theoretical base of supportting bourgois democracy ; it is helping the ongoing attempt to divide people by race in this country (which the idiot Respect/SWP have fallen into) and in the current climate serves to do little but provide support for the establishment

Anti-fascism actually has more of a historical base in community-based (mostly w/c communities) solidarism that in "supporting bourgeois democracy". You're projecting your present-day perceptions and prejudices on an endeavour that spans 70+ years.

and it is a joke when the left has confined itself to student and muslim communities that attacks will help create leftwing alternatives in w/c areas .. it will almost definatly backfire

Personally I don't give a monkey's what "the left" is supposed to have done/be doing, or where you suppose it's located.

i support that we DO help organise people who wish to er defend communities .. and there will be times that they will need to deal with fascists but i would suggest they woudl be better served dealing with loan sharks/scum landlords/hard drug dealers/gangsters/scummy employers and the police .. issues that really affect peoples day to day

My fucking G-d, you really don't have a clue about cause and effect, do you?

p.s. like the insult!

So do I.

 

[likesfish]

it might well be counterproductive if the BNP types targeted are not an obvious bunch of skinhead bullies.
people tend to dig there feet in.
witness the SWP inspired asylum seekers welcome here fiasco
met one character in my very brief membership of the ANL who was and is a nutter (would probably do more damage to the bnp by joining it )

sending threating letters to newsagents and scrawling graffiti all over Brighton not really effective

 

[ViolentPanda]

you should no better than this .. anti fascism is in now way a simply class struggle .. it has it roots in defending bourgois democracy ..

In some states, yes, in others no.
anti-fascism in the UK had very specific roots that had nothing to do with maintaining or defending "bourgeois democracy", and everything to do with working class and/or minority communities defending themselves against the latest evolution of the politics of class, culture and capital.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I repeat: would you think that people would rally around the BNP pubs in support afterwards though, fitting new windows and generally disregarding what went on in there?

Certainly not my experience when BNP pubs have been targeted in this way - George (I think) down the Front Line, Brixton, Lords in Mitcham and so on. Widespread revulsion to the bullies, wankers and racists in the pubs - largely celebrations when their venues were removed, without some kind of rallying-around window-fitting street party happening afterwards.

I don't remember the local community rallying around the Pine Tavern in Battersea when it went from being a biker pub to being an NF hangout in the mid to late 70s and subsequently had it's windows bricked and it's frontage decorated on a day to day basis. Probably something to do with the Winstanley estate having a lot of BME folk living there who were quite offended at the boneheads strutting around on their turf.

I'm trying to get to the botttom of why Treelover would make such a remarkable assertion and what his logic is.

Logic?

 

[Spion]

I'm trying to get to the botttom of why Treelover would make such a remarkable assertion and what his logic is.

An utterly demoralised (former?) left-wing activist with no principles to hold him firm when all around are being drawn rightwards?

 

[_angel_]

I repeat: would you think that people would rally around the BNP pubs in support afterwards though, fitting new windows and generally disregarding what went on in there?

I have no idea tbh. That might be down to whether there is a large amount of support for the BNP in the local area or not.

Certainly not my experience when BNP pubs have been targeted in this way - George (I think) down the Front Line, Brixton, Lords in Mitcham and so on. Widespread revulsion to the bullies, wankers and racists in the pubs - largely celebrations when their venues were removed, without some kind of rallying-around window-fitting street party happening afterwards.

The response in Brixton may be quite different from here in Bramley where sadly the BNP enjoy a bit of support (and also racist idiot Eddie Morrison lives)

 

[The Black Hand]

Why folks like Treelover seem duty bound to act as uninformed apologists for the BNP Is beyond me. These venues semingly have a long history of supporting, hosting and abetting - I"m not going to shed a tear they get vandalised.

I'm sadly old enough to recall the yelps of joy and scenes of celebration as several BNP pubs around here got their comeuppance. Sometimes, just sometimes, a little forceful action gets the job done - nobody should feel bashful about targeting these racist wankers, no matter how snidely they wrap their message up these days.

I think you're OK - carry on.

 

[tbaldwin]

Suggesting that a NF pub will become more popular after being targeted, the community pitching in for new windows, goes well beyond questioning its effects though, doesn't it Balders?

It more than implies support if I'm honest, I keep on asking about Treelover's logic behind mentioning that, or any real world example of such support, by he seems to have lost his nuts and tongue.

I dont think he wants the BNP or NF doing well, do you?
It does read as if you are trying to smear him.
I think that it is right to question the actions of anti fascists, though i have been a supporter participant of direct action.

 

[tarannau]

I don't have to 'smear' TL to show him up in a bad light. His continued, habit of wanking on the 'poor us, they're driving us to the BNP' approach is as predictable and asinine as it ever has been.

You can query the work of anti-fascists all you like. But that doesn't mean that you can start envisaging a community bonding together in the aftermath of an attack on a divisive BNP-favoured club, building window frames abd suspiciously ignoring the obvious racism of the party. It doesn't wash ... and even if it did, I wouldn't be rushing to do anything other than condemn the obviously racist fuckwits. Too many people are far too keen to excuse those opting for the BNP, adding all sorts of qualifications. The sad truth is that the primary appeal of the party remain the same - keeping them nasty foreigners and 'outsiders' away. You don't have to be Einstein to work out the rest, nor should we easily excuse those who wilfully ignore the roots of the BNP in favour of a 'protest' vote.

 

[chico enrico]

just out of interest, are there any 'BNP Pubs' in London? Apart from the Blade Bone on Whitechapel High st which used to be a Front boozer i'm not aware of any...

 

[tarannau]

Not sure if there would be any as unsubtle as when I was younger to be fair, but I'm not running pubs any more and don't know as much.

I suspect everything's a little more low key these days - I suspect folks like Tyndall and Thurston remain, walking in to pubs and still garnering 'respect' from the same, if diminishing, band of suspects. And people will still call them wankers when their backs have turned too.

 

[butchersapron]

Up-to-date then.

 

[Spion]

i thought you were in favour of this kind of thing?

 

[tarannau]

Never said that I was. Surprisingly enough I don't have much call to dwell in those places now that I'm not employed to clear the worst offenders out.

I'll live with that if I'm honest. But if you're interested, I still know that a fair few of the same figures are involved locally, ploughing the same furrows in diminishing domains.

 

[butchersapron]

***

 

[tbaldwin]

I don't have to 'smear' TL to show him up in a bad light. His continued, habit of wanking on the 'poor us, they're driving us to the BNP' approach is as predictable and asinine as it ever has been.

You can query the work of anti-fascists all you like. But that doesn't mean that you can start envisaging a community bonding together in the aftermath of an attack on a divisive BNP-favoured club, building window frames abd suspiciously ignoring the obvious racism of the party. It doesn't wash ... and even if it did, I wouldn't be rushing to do anything other than condemn the obviously racist fuckwits. Too many people are far too keen to excuse those opting for the BNP, adding all sorts of qualifications. The sad truth is that the primary appeal of the party remain the same - keeping them nasty foreigners and 'outsiders' away. You don't have to be Einstein to work out the rest, nor should we easily excuse those who wilfully ignore the roots of the BNP in favour of a 'protest' vote.

I think that treelover is concerned that the BNP is getting a helping hand from some of the people who claim to be most against them.
He does his best to look at why the BNP is gaining support not because he wants to add to it but because he wants to succesfully counter them.

Its all very well condemning people tarannau but that is a rather closed eyes approach to my mind. I am all for battering the worst elements of the far right when neccesary but i think it is important to understand and undercut their appeal. And i think thats what treelover wants too.
I think you have made a mistake in implying that he is somehow sympathetic to the BNP or racism in general.

 

[butchersapron]

I agree. I don't think that all people who vote BNP are racist. Starting from this point is not a racist position. It's the most sensible political postion there is to combat racism. It's an anti-racist position.

We're back to the bad old days on P&P.

 

[_angel_]

I don't have to 'smear' TL to show him up in a bad light. His continued, habit of wanking on the 'poor us, they're driving us to the BNP' approach is as predictable and asinine as it ever has been.

You can query the work of anti-fascists all you like. But that doesn't mean that you can start envisaging a community bonding together in the aftermath of an attack on a divisive BNP-favoured club, building window frames abd suspiciously ignoring the obvious racism of the party. It doesn't wash ... and even if it did, I wouldn't be rushing to do anything other than condemn the obviously racist fuckwits. Too many people are far too keen to excuse those opting for the BNP, adding all sorts of qualifications. The sad truth is that the primary appeal of the party remain the same - keeping them nasty foreigners and 'outsiders' away. You don't have to be Einstein to work out the rest, nor should we easily excuse those who wilfully ignore the roots of the BNP in favour of a 'protest' vote.

I'm not excusing anyone deluded enough to want to vote BNP.

 

[tbaldwin]

I agree. I don't think that all people who vote BNP are racist. Starting from this point is not a racist position. It's the most sensible political postion there is to combat racism. It's an anti-racist position.

We're back to the bad old days on P&P.

I also think its worth saying that there are degrees of racism. And that to push people who are soft racists towards hard racists is a bit stoopid.
I think its best to create as much distance between the BNP and people who may possibly vote for them or join them.

 

[The Black Hand]

Another attack on BNP supporting venue;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/394748.html

 

[cantsin]

just out of interest, are there any 'BNP Pubs' in London? Apart from the Blade Bone on Whitechapel High st which used to be a Front boozer i'm not aware of any...

I wouldnt bother going into the British Lion on the Hackney Road to spread the word of socialism , unless it was of the national sort .

 

[cantsin]

tarranau, you should be banned for those insults, post reported

what an utter plum ...

 

[Belushi]

just out of interest, are there any 'BNP Pubs' in London? Apart from the Blade Bone on Whitechapel High st which used to be a Front boozer i'm not aware of any...

There are still pubs in SE London where a black person wouldnt be welcomed.

 

[RedRumsBum]

There are still pubs in SE London where a black person wouldnt be welcomed.

Are they the ones that you have settled down in, after you've found out that you're not welcome in every black pub either?

 

[JHE]

just out of interest, are there any 'BNP Pubs' in London? Apart from the Blade Bone on Whitechapel High st which used to be a Front boozer i'm not aware of any...

The Blade Bone of ill repute is not in Whitechapel. It is or was on Bethnal Green Road, near the top of Brick Lane.

I haven't been in the area for a while and don't know whether the pub still exists. My guess is that it doesn't.

 

[durruti02]

The Blade Bone of ill repute is not in Whitechapel. It is or was on Bethnal Green Road, near the top of Brick Lane.

I haven't been in the area for a while and don't know whether the pub still exists. My guess is that it doesn't.

yes the Blade Bone was on BG Rd not whitechapel and yes i believe it has gone. ( a noodle bar apparently!) One of my best friends ( who is black) was attacked and hospitalised outside by fascists as he was walking with his (white) girlfriend many years ago. The NF used it as their meeting point for their papersales at Brick Lane, papersales they gave up on many years ago

i remember on the ANL march to Vicky Park 30 years ago every pub on that stretch of BG Rd had a semi circle of police outside cordoning in groups of sieg heiling drinkers