Anti-Fascists attack 'BNP' WMCs, Pubs etc

[The Black Hand]

Would you care to give a definition of "righteous politics"?

Utopian, hippy, ultra left or some varieties of anarchism come into this category. Condemning whilst never actually practicing realistic politics, and realistic for me means working in mass and serious movements rather than merely the 'federation' or an hit squad.

 

[The Black Hand]

The point is that it doesn't work. What you're saying is about as meaningful as saying that voting BNP "works" for the people doing it.

You say that, but for the participants with different politics to you IT DOES WORK. It reproduces their types of politics. The point is to change the situation as the old beardy said, and you will not do that by bleating about it saying it's 'so unfair'. That shows your utter weakness and inability to do politics of your own. Get on with it

I agree BNP politics does work for the participants, lets do something about it. What do you suggest?

 

[In Bloom]

Utopian, hippy, ultra left or some varieties of anarchism come into this category.

So anyone who disagrees with you, basically.

Condemning whilst never actually practicing realistic politics

You don't actually know what anybody on here is involved in though. All you've got to go on is a few posts on a message board.

realistic for me means working in mass and serious movements rather than merely the 'federation' or an hit squad.

So you're throwing your support behind Antifa?

 

[The Black Hand]

So anyone who disagrees with you, basically.

You don't actually know what anybody on here is involved in though. All you've got to go on is a few posts on a message board.

So you're throwing your support behind Antifa?

I critisise what I know of anti fascist and various groups. I agree with the article in Mayday magazine and the descriptions of other politics it makes.

http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf

There is a role for anti fa, but its current perspectives and practice are very limited. I was at its founding meeting

 

[In Bloom]

You say that, but for the participants with different politics to you IT DOES WORK. It reproduces their types of politics.

It works in so far as it achieves what it sets out to achieve (mobilising support for a particular bourgeois party). When I say it doesn't work, I mean it fails to achieve anything useful for the working class.

The point is to change the situation as the old beardy said, and you will not do that by bleating about it saying it's 'so unfair'. That shows your utter weakness and inability to do politics of your own. Get on with it

I agree BNP politics does work for the participants, lets do something about it. What do you suggest?

I'd suggest that rather than fighting one fringe, far right party, we need to be focusing on issues like unemployment, housing, workplace conditions (casualisation in particular) and discrimination against migrant workers. Which, funnily enough, are the areas that most of my political work focuses on.

 

[The Black Hand]

It works in so far as it achieves what it sets out to achieve (mobilising support for a particular bourgeois party). When I say it doesn't work, I mean it fails to achieve anything useful for the working class.

B) I'd suggest that rather than fighting one fringe, far right party, we need to be focusing on issues like unemployment, housing, workplace conditions (casualisation in particular) and discrimination against migrant workers. Which, funnily enough, are the areas that most of my political work focuses on.

Well you should say it then (in bold).

B) So you are an ultra leftist. Was WW2 a massively popular anti fascist war then? The problem is you (ultra leftists) argue yourself (themselves) out of any contemporary relevance. Your approach to an issue is that it is not really an issue! I would rather see what becomes possible rather than apriori write off it all in advance like you do - which, as I already said, is not an anarchist or Marxist position as I know them. It is dogmatic though.

 

[In Bloom]

Well you should say it then (in bold).

B) So you are an ultra leftist. Was WW2 a massively popular anti fascist war then? The problem is you (ultra leftists) argue yourself (themselves) out of any contemporary relevance. Your approach to an issue is that it is not really an issue! I would rather see what becomes possible rather than apriori write off it all in advance like you do - which, as I already said, is not an anarchist or Marxist position as I know them. It is dogmatic though.

Did you even read my post?

I haven't written anything off. Millitant anti-fascism has its place, I just think that under present conditions, it makes more sense to focus more on rebuilding a working class culture of resistance.

 

[durruti02]

Did you even read my post?

I haven't written anything off. Millitant anti-fascism has its place, I just think that under present conditions, it makes more sense to focus more on rebuilding a working class culture of resistance.

totally agree with you IB .. not sure what attica is on about tbh

 

[The Black Hand]

Did you even read my post?

I haven't written anything off. Millitant anti-fascism has its place, I just think that under present conditions, it makes more sense to focus more on rebuilding a working class culture of resistance.

I read your post, when you said "I'd suggest that rather than fighting one fringe, far right party" this seems to be writing off anti fascism against the far right party. You do state that you think other politics is where its at, - 'it makes more sense'. OK. So you are negative towards anti fascism currently, which to me means 'writing it off' if that includes anti fascist action and practice are not encouraged. You, like Durutti sem to think that anti fascism must be hit squads or nothing, that is not the case. There are other more sophisticated anti fascists who encourage the type of autonomous anti fasicsm I am supporting, which can and does do the type of work you appear to be supporting. perhaps you should read the article Autonomous Anti Fascism here in Mayday magazine;

http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf

Rather than confront what people think in the first instance (which appears to be your position to me) I would rather agree with what they are doing and develop the possibilities in the conditions rather than impose another agenda or ideal type analysis.

 

[ViolentPanda]

?? thats the very point i make all along VP! it is that local work that undercuts fascism .. not 'anti-fascism' which is either some macho irrelevance or helps the Labour Party stay in power

"Anti-fascism" is part and parcel of "local work", you chihuahua's anus.

 

[The Black Hand]

"Anti-fascism" is part and parcel of "local work", you chihuahua's anus.

Agreed, anti fascism is a class struggle like any other. Except for the dodgy doggy reference...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Agreed, anti fascism is a class struggle like any other. Except for the dodgy doggy reference...

Durutti's seemingly wilful blindness irks me occasionally, hence the defamatory comparison (defaming chihuahuas, obviously) to a canine ringpiece.

 

[The Black Hand]

Durutti's seemingly wilful blindness irks me occasionally, hence the defamatory comparison (defaming chihuahuas, obviously) to a canine ringpiece.

I get irked at some things too

 

[durruti02]

"Anti-fascism" is part and parcel of "local work", you chihuahua's anus.

is it? no .. i really do think it is an irrelevance .. it takes our eyes of the real target ; it has a confused theoretical base of supportting bourgois democracy ; it is helping the ongoing attempt to divide people by race in this country (which the idiot Respect/SWP have fallen into) and in the current climate serves to do little but provide support for the establishment

and it is a joke when the left has confined itself to student and muslim communities that attacks will help create leftwing alternatives in w/c areas .. it will almost definatly backfire

i support that we DO help organise people who wish to er defend communities .. and there will be times that they will need to deal with fascists but i would suggest they woudl be better served dealing with loan sharks/scum landlords/hard drug dealers/gangsters/scummy employers and the police .. issues that really affect peoples day to day

p.s. like the insult!

 

[durruti02]

Agreed, anti fascism is a class struggle like any other.

you should no better than this .. anti fascism is in now way a simply class struggle .. it has it roots in defending bourgois democracy ..

you have given up on Barrot then?

"Whether it admits it or not, antifascism has become the necessary form of both working class and capitalist reformism. Antifascism unites the two by claiming to represent the true ideal of the bourgeois revolution betrayed by Capital. Democracy is conceived as an element of socialism, an element already present in our society. Socialism is envisaged as total democracy. The struggle for socialism would consist of winning more and more democratic rights within the framework of capitalism. With the help of the fascist scapegoat, democratic gradualism is revitalized. Fascism and antifascism have the same origin and the same program, but the former claimed to go beyond Capital and classes, while the latter tries to attain the "true" bourgeois democracy which is endlessly perfectible through the addition of stronger and stronger doses of democracy. In reality, bourgeois democracy is a stage in the taking of power by Capital, and its extension into the 20th century has resulted in the increasing isolation of individuals. Born as the illusory solution to the problem of the separation of human activity and society, democracy will never be able to resolve the problem of the most separated society in the whole of history. Antifascism will always end in increasing totalitarianism; its fight for a "democratic" State will end in strengthening the State."
http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/fasant02.htm

 

[The Black Hand]

you should no better than this .. anti fascism is in now way a simply class struggle .. it has it roots in defending bourgois democracy ..

you have given up on Barrot then?

"Whether it admits it or not, antifascism has become the necessary form of both working class and capitalist reformism. Antifascism unites the two by claiming to represent the true ideal of the bourgeois revolution betrayed by Capital. Democracy is conceived as an element of socialism, an element already present in our society. Socialism is envisaged as total democracy. The struggle for socialism would consist of winning more and more democratic rights within the framework of capitalism. With the help of the fascist scapegoat, democratic gradualism is revitalized. Fascism and antifascism have the same origin and the same program, but the former claimed to go beyond Capital and classes, while the latter tries to attain the "true" bourgeois democracy which is endlessly perfectible through the addition of stronger and stronger doses of democracy. In reality, bourgeois democracy is a stage in the taking of power by Capital, and its extension into the 20th century has resulted in the increasing isolation of individuals. Born as the illusory solution to the problem of the separation of human activity and society, democracy will never be able to resolve the problem of the most separated society in the whole of history. Antifascism will always end in increasing totalitarianism; its fight for a "democratic" State will end in strengthening the State."
http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/fasant02.htm

It's ultra leftism and I'm not an ultra leftist. I think, rather like Dave Douglass in "All Power to the Imagination" but in a different issue, that anti fascism does not always have to be as described by you or him.

You know I do not think the communist and anarchist partisans in Italy during WW2 thought like Barrot either, and with very good reason(s).

 

[Kaka Tim]

Funnily enough I work as a communtiy worker in the estate next door to the Dog and Gun.

The estate has always had a high degree of support for far right parties. Any BME familiy moving on to certian streets on the estate will be attacked. Dozens of families have had to be rehoused in the past year alone. Attacks have included threats, verbal abuse, vandalism, arson and physical assaults - often accompanied with hate mail.

I dont believe that BNP members are actaully carrying out or organsing the attacks - but there active presence certainyl contirubtes to a culture of acceptance towards violent racism.

With regards to the atttcks - the Dog and Gun has been a well known meeting place for the fash for a long time and has an extremly dubious reputation. The people who run it are certianly sympathetic to the far right.

An action like this will help disrupt the organsiational abilites of the BNP - but Im not sure about targetting the venue rather than the actual meetings.

I do not think that such millitant anti-facism and building community based radicalim are mutally exclusive - but I would agree that the radical left/activist movement need to pay far far greater attention to the later.

 

[tarannau]

Why folks like Treelover seem duty bound to act as uninformed apologists for the BNP Is beyond me. These venues semingly have a long history of supporting, hosting and abetting - I"m not going to shed a tear they get vandalised.

I'm sadly old enough to recall the yelps of joy and scenes of celebration as several BNP pubs around here got their comeuppance. Sometimes, just sometimes, a little forceful action gets the job done - nobody should feel bashful about targeting these racist wankers, no matter how snidely they wrap their message up these days.

 

[bluestreak]

Why folks like Treelover seem duty bound to act as uninformed apologists for the BNP Is beyond me. These venues semingly have a long history of supporting, hosting and abetting - I"m not going to shed a tear they get vandalised.

I'm sadly old enough to recall the yelps of joy and scenes of celebration as several BNP pubs around here got their comeuppance. Sometimes, just sometimes, a little forceful action gets the job done - nobody should feel bashful about targeting these racist wankers, no matter how snidely they wrap their message up these days.

This.

 

[treelover]

@tarannau, grow up wanker

 

[tarannau]

I should grow up? I'm not the one forever making apologies for the BNP. Or calling people 'wanker' like a spoilt, petulant child without a point

Do you care to explain your logic behind suggesting that these well known BNP venues, once vandalised, would attract sympathy making locals 'more likely to support the venue and possibly chip in for the broken widows'. Why's that - not happened hen I've seen BNP venues fucked over, that's for sure.

Did you pluck this reasoning from your uninformed arse. Or is just a reflection of your racist thinking and your haste to make apologies for the BNP. Why this smartarse thread and the endless shitty justifications.

 

[treelover]

tarranau, you should be banned for those insults, post reported

 

[tarannau]

Big fucking whoopee.

FWIW I think your reasoning that actions to target a well known BNP venue would lead to the community increasingly getting behind the venue and even helping to fix the windows, far more worrying, harmful and illuminating than any minor bad names I've called you.

I note you haven't explained your logic, nor your indecent haste to run to the support of the BNP.

As you were then, wittering on why it's understandable why you and your pals keep on cutting the BNP more than a little slack. It's not out fault, we're just driven to join this bunch of transparently not-disguised racists and haven't the decency or common sense to stop ourselves. It's not out fault, we're not racists, we're just doing it to protest...

Pish

 

[_angel_]

Who is supporting the BNP on here exactly?

 

[Spion]

tarranau, you should be banned for those insults, post reported

You should try arguing back like someone with a bit of spine

 

[tarannau]

You don't think one bod's making apologies and showing some remarkable logic then Angel. How convenient.

In your area, when a well known racist pub has been targeted, do people around the wider community rally around and start supporting the pub more, fixing the windows and forgetting what goes on in there? Or is it the same entrenched racist nags who go in there, same as before.

 

[Fuchs66]

I think it does help. If the petit bourgeois see their profits falling cos they keep getting done over they will cease their de facto support of the BNP.

The phrase divide and conquer is lost on you isn't it?

 

[In Bloom]

The phrase divide and conquer is lost on you isn't it?

A somewhat unfortunate use of the phrase, being that it refers to the people doing the conquering dividing into more than one group so that they can get things done.

 

[tarannau]

You should try arguing back like someone with a bit of spine

He calls me a wanker and then cries off to the mods

I've lost count of the number of 'white working class, we've got it so bad' (poor us) and threads which make excuses and suggest reasons why people are being 'driven' to the BNP started by this poster.

It's kind of Godwin's new law in the P&P boards - allege that the ill feeling is making people vote BNP. It's just a protest, they're not really racists ...much.

 

[tbaldwin]

Why folks like Treelover seem duty bound to act as uninformed apologists for the BNP Is beyond me. These venues semingly have a long history of supporting, hosting and abetting - I"m not going to shed a tear they get vandalised.

I'm sadly old enough to recall the yelps of joy and scenes of celebration as several BNP pubs around here got their comeuppance. Sometimes, just sometimes, a little forceful action gets the job done - nobody should feel bashful about targeting these racist wankers, no matter how snidely they wrap their message up these days.

What BNP pubs were those tarranau? Your in Brixton aernt you?

I think it made sense sometimes to directly attack nazis and the places they hung out in. But any kind of low level terrorism like that has to be thought through. And i think its fair enough that treelover and durruti have questions about its effects.
Trying to make out yet a fucking gen that they have some racist leanings just makes you look a twat.