Anti-fascist fortnight
- Thread starter militant atheist
- Start date
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Leafleting etc can be effective if it is directly relevant to the area.
Myth busting and exposing the lies and distortions put out by the BNP, highlighting their real agenda and tackling head on their claim to be representing the working classes and talioring that information speciffically to the locality could have an effect. Its certainly better than given the cunts a free rein.
Supporting community activists who actually live in the BNP target area is another approach - there are some out there. But it is essential that it is these people who take the lead on how to tackle the far right - and they may very well reject the idea of a gaggle of trots tramping round the estate.
Marching in with one-size-fits-all glossy leaflets making exaggerated claims about the BNP or urging everyone to be nice to foriegn folk is not going to cut the mustard.
The fundemental problem - as has been identified - is the absence of any significent political movement representing the working classes. Grassroots Labour and trade union acitvity is virtually non-existant on big urban social housing estates, all you have is various local authority development quangos made up of outside agencies.
Myth busting and exposing the lies and distortions put out by the BNP, highlighting their real agenda and tackling head on their claim to be representing the working classes and talioring that information speciffically to the locality could have an effect. Its certainly better than given the cunts a free rein.
Supporting community activists who actually live in the BNP target area is another approach - there are some out there. But it is essential that it is these people who take the lead on how to tackle the far right - and they may very well reject the idea of a gaggle of trots tramping round the estate.
Marching in with one-size-fits-all glossy leaflets making exaggerated claims about the BNP or urging everyone to be nice to foriegn folk is not going to cut the mustard.
The fundemental problem - as has been identified - is the absence of any significent political movement representing the working classes. Grassroots Labour and trade union acitvity is virtually non-existant on big urban social housing estates, all you have is various local authority development quangos made up of outside agencies.
militant atheist
avoidant
Kaka Tim said:
This what I feel and at least the Searchlight-co-ordinated events appear to be making an effort in this direction.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
tbaldwin said:
(relatively) sophisticated post-modern fascists--just not nazis...
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
militant atheist said:
would that you made an effort in the direction of answering my points above (Post 30). Or is the reason for not doing so obvious?
militant atheist
avoidant
Larry O'Hara said:
Mainly because I don't have any answers Larry. I have no personal knowledge of Searchlight or their activities, while you clearly have well-informed and strongly-held opinions. What I'm seeking to ascertain is people's views on the proposed 'anti-fascist fortnight' and that if those views are negative, as yours are, what alternative strategy could be put in place for campaigning for the May elections. Incidentally, I agree that branding the BNP as 'nazis' is foolish and counter-productive, but what I'm really interested in is any proposals for a broad-based strategy that would not, as a previous poster so elequently put it, 'give the cunts a free rein'.
militant atheist said:
Start by assuming that the person reading your literature is fairly selfish and has 'compassion fatigue' with regard to the plight of asylum seekers etc. Make the main thrust of your argument an effort to show in plain language why the BNP is bad news for the reader, with good evidence to back it up.
'anti-fascist fortnight'
Or white middleclass moralising week as it is also known
Or white middleclass moralising week as it is also known
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
durruti02 said:
1) It's spelled "fascism".
2) While individual groups might be "empty vessels", anti-fascism as an endeavour has never been.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
tbaldwin said:
As "the British Nationalist Party" who happen to have some members with a NSDAP fixation and a penchant for Hitler-worship, perhaps?
Bear in mind too that it's the sieg-heilers and swastika-lickers that old one-eye is trying to shed, to make his party more cosmetically acceptable to those racists who are middle class.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
brasicattack said:'anti-fascist fortnight'
Or white middleclass moralising week as it is also known
Is that because it only takes the moralising white middle class half the time it takes us proles to do something?
ViolentPanda said:
thank you for correcting my spelling ...
i think anti facsim is wrong .. i think fascismm is just a varient of capitalism .. i also think that capitalism is far far far more dangerous than facsism .. seriously .. i think anti fascism i a blind and a barrier to revolution/change ..
that said it would be the job of community orgnaisations to attack fascist goups as and when ..
p.s. you replying to my pm? ;-)
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
How sweet, you think anti-fascism is wrong and that it detracts from fighting capitalism.durruti02 said:thank you for correcting my spelling ...
i think anti facsim is wrong .. i think fascismm is just a varient of capitalism .. i also think that capitalism is far far far more dangerous than facsism .. seriously .. i think anti fascism i a blind and a barrier to revolution/change ..
What primary school playground did you pick that little gem up in?
Who do you think will be the most militant arm of Capital if you ever did get into a situation where revolutionary change was possible?
Why do you think Capital has backed and bankrolled fascism wherever it has emerged strongly enough?
Why are you in such a hurry to disregard a force (and I'm not talking about the fringe like the BNP) that's been constantly bubbling beneath the surface of our political landscape for the last 60 years at least, and which, especially given the increasing restrictions on liberties that have been and are being legislated by the government, appears to be finding some acceptance for its' ideas again?
Please read some history, and stop thinking of anti-fascism in terms of having a ruck with some boneheads, or exposes by "Searchlight" of yet another "Nazi" group that usually turns out to be "owned" by one of their mates at Special Branch.
It goes (and has to go) much deeper and further than that.
It always has been.
Same as it's historically ben the police's job to protect the fascists.
I thought I had done.
Geoff Collier
Active Member
Nigel said:I should imagine that this 'dynamic' has something to do with the AWL's new intervention in 'Anti Fascism'.
i think that the only good thing that the SWP has done in jthe last few years is given these fuckwits a good slap now and again.
Could you explain what this means i.e. the first sentence. Feel free to expalin the second one too though
The Black Hand
Unclean
Larry O'Hara said:
Do you seek to play down the levels of Nazi ideas in their party cos it serves a different ideological agenda?
Here is more evidence of Nazi ideas in BNP ranks;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/01/359411.html
I would rather those with different ideas put forward their own plan for the fortnight, complete with own newspaper/leaflets to give activists a choice about which they think is best, because activists will not deliver what they think is mistaken (well I wouldn't anyway). That I suggest would be an authentically radical approach to work against racist/fascist elements...
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Attica said:
1) I have never "played down" the fact there are Nazis in the BNP--indeed, NFB 7 ran a rather long articl;e concerning among others Joe Owens, recently departed & an undoubted Nazi. To which could be added others such as Marsden & the 'real BNP' current. However, the fact that there are Nazis in the BNP no more makes them Nazi as such, without qualification, than the presence of socialists within the Labour Party (or even Marxists) makes it socialist. Or indeed whatever union you personally are in automatically becomes an 'Independent Class War' organisation by virtue of your presence. I am referring to the core operational and political ideology of the BNP, which in my considered view is not Nazi. It may be that your extant research on this topic I have unaccountably missed--if you direct me to it I will consider it.
2) "serves a different ideological agenda"--who or what is this referring to? I'm a bit thick, see, only having one PhD...
I don't doubt it--and neither do I doubt that C18 has more than the whiff of the state about it.
I have no intention of jumping through any hoops on any time-scale predetermined by Searchlight scum. I have variously (eg NFB issue 5 & 7 especially) outlined a strategy. If people aren't interested, so be it. But I'm not tailing others agendas/timeframes.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Larry O'Hara said:
Larry, you said this "I am referring to the core operational and political ideology of the BNP, which in my considered view is not Nazi" which clears up the issue really. Though when they are trying to be respectable showing all the 'unrespectable' stuff/people the BNP has got is a contradiction that is serious enough to put off some 'undecided' voters at least i think.
The different ideological agenda observation was aluding to a different politics, even if it is only a de facto one. I was looking for you to provisionally 'label' what you do politically.
I was not expecting, you personally, to do an alternative 14 days 'spectacular', but I do think that criticising without an alternative is problematic as some people are definately looking for ideas. I am going to try to find your strategy on the web, as I have not read it and I think I should. This (anti fascism) is a subject I have stayed clear of, for many reasons, for years, but I now have the political curiosity to research it...
Cheers
Ill do the plug and far as one is concerned Larry O' Hara needs to read understood what of the most important thinkers of our? movement?.
A detailed investigation into anti-fascist magazine Searchlight, and its
links with British intelligence services. Despite causing a lot of
problems for fascists, Searchlight gathers intelligence on both the right
and the left and amongst other things has launched smear campaigns against
anarchists. Its agenda is firmly set in the interests of the British
liberal capitalist state
By Larry O' Hara
First Published by Phoenix Press, PO Box 824, London N1 9DL, in October 1996
ISBN 0-948984-33-3
Part One: The 1970's
http://libcom.org/library/SearchlightForBeginnersLarryOhara1
Part Two: The 1980's and Beyond
http://libcom.org/library/SearchlightForBeginnersLarryOhara2
References
http://libcom.org/library/SearchlightForBeginnersLarryOhararef
More
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi
A detailed investigation into anti-fascist magazine Searchlight, and its
links with British intelligence services. Despite causing a lot of
problems for fascists, Searchlight gathers intelligence on both the right
and the left and amongst other things has launched smear campaigns against
anarchists. Its agenda is firmly set in the interests of the British
liberal capitalist state
By Larry O' Hara
First Published by Phoenix Press, PO Box 824, London N1 9DL, in October 1996
ISBN 0-948984-33-3
Part One: The 1970's
http://libcom.org/library/SearchlightForBeginnersLarryOhara1
Part Two: The 1980's and Beyond
http://libcom.org/library/SearchlightForBeginnersLarryOhara2
References
http://libcom.org/library/SearchlightForBeginnersLarryOhararef
More
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi
Attica said:Larry, you said this "I am referring to the core operational and political ideology of the BNP, which in my considered view is not Nazi" which clears up the issue really. Though when they are trying to be respectable showing all the 'unrespectable' stuff/people the BNP has got is a contradiction that is serious enough to put off some 'undecided' voters at least i think.
The different ideological agenda observation was aluding to a different politics, even if it is only a de facto one. I was looking for you to provisionally 'label' what you do politically.
I was not expecting, you personally, to do an alternative 14 days 'spectacular', but I do think that criticising without an alternative is problematic as some people are definately looking for ideas. I am going to try to find your strategy on the web, as I have not read it and I think I should. This (anti fascism) is a subject I have stayed clear of, for many reasons, for years, but I now have the political curiosity to research it...
Cheers
Start here http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi a lot to read but worth doing so.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
To those who say that the BNP is not a Nazi party then they should try keeping schtum and listening to conversations between bnp members and supporters in their pubs and social spaces. I for one have heard comments such as 'we should do to the muslims what Hitler did to the Jews'. I think that makes them a Nazi party in my book.
Middle class trots / Searchlight / appeals to vote for another dose of new labour toadies / anarkids / various swappie front organisations etc won't work either.
What is needed is people who are anti fascist who live in areas like B and D to organise community parties to take on the bnp in those areas of social action where they are doing well such as helping people deal with the council beauracracy, organising litter picks, helping people with their housing applications etc etc. Anti fascist locals who are doing this need support and unfortunately sometime protection from larger organisations who support the work of the local groups but don't control them. This is one way you can break the myth that the bnp are the 'protectors' of the white working class communities in which they are operating.
Leafleting with refutations of bnp lies may work with some but the bnp have been VERY effective in painting all official and official-seeming information as Government lies. For example: The University of East London Barking Campus has closed and the site is most likely going to be private housing (surprise surprise I wonder which councilor or council officer has had a nice meal out of that one Grrrr!). However, most of the people in the area in which I am happily moving from appear to believe the bnp line that the site is going to become luxury housing for asylum seekers and paedophiles. Until councilors and senior officers are accountable and squeeky clean it will be difficicult for anti bnp forces to counter such lies.
Middle class trots / Searchlight / appeals to vote for another dose of new labour toadies / anarkids / various swappie front organisations etc won't work either.
What is needed is people who are anti fascist who live in areas like B and D to organise community parties to take on the bnp in those areas of social action where they are doing well such as helping people deal with the council beauracracy, organising litter picks, helping people with their housing applications etc etc. Anti fascist locals who are doing this need support and unfortunately sometime protection from larger organisations who support the work of the local groups but don't control them. This is one way you can break the myth that the bnp are the 'protectors' of the white working class communities in which they are operating.
Leafleting with refutations of bnp lies may work with some but the bnp have been VERY effective in painting all official and official-seeming information as Government lies. For example: The University of East London Barking Campus has closed and the site is most likely going to be private housing (surprise surprise I wonder which councilor or council officer has had a nice meal out of that one Grrrr!). However, most of the people in the area in which I am happily moving from appear to believe the bnp line that the site is going to become luxury housing for asylum seekers and paedophiles. Until councilors and senior officers are accountable and squeeky clean it will be difficicult for anti bnp forces to counter such lies.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It makes them a party with members who are (neo)-Nazi.KeyboardJockey said:
The party heirarchy won't put a stop to it, but you can bet they disassociate themselves from the Hitler-worship and fetishisation of Nazism whenever it seeps through the cracks.
Griffin and his ilk know that Mosley made a mistake in the 1950s, looking for mass w/c support. Sure they have and will establish enclaves of support in w/c areas - disaffection with current mainstream politics makes that (unfortunately) almost a "given" - but what Griffin and his coterie long for is to use their establishment as a "legitimate" political choice as a beachhead into the middle class's electoral consciousness. He knows that if only he can get a foothold there, then he can shed his boneheads and start a climb toward the house of commons.
That's why while I think it's right to tackle the manifestations of "Nazism" on the ground, that it's also important not to lose sight of the fact that Griffin may be playing a very long game.
For the very good reason that while they're (supposedly) "for the people" of B & D, they're not of the people.
Of course, if you're Durruti02, you won't be bothered by any of this because you'll "think anti fascism is wrong".
You're absolutely right that grassroots organising is the only effective way, but your point about the protection that they might need is well made.
And even if you're local government was squeaky-clean it wouldn't make that much difference, because imho the "culture of cynicism" that the media has developed around the practise of government means that rather than believing, people will say "prove it", whereas the BNP only has to make allegations, and prove nothing.
ViolentPanda said:1 ..How sweet, you think anti-fascism is wrong and that it detracts from fighting capitalism.
2 .. What primary school playground did you pick that little gem up in?
3 ..Who do you think will be the most militant arm of Capital if you ever did get into a situation where revolutionary change was possible? Why do you think Capital has backed and bankrolled fascism wherever it has emerged strongly enough?
4 ..Why are you in such a hurry to disregard a force (and I'm not talking about the fringe like the BNP) that's been constantly bubbling beneath the surface of our political landscape for the last 60 years at least, and which, especially given the increasing restrictions on liberties that have been and are being legislated by the government, appears to be finding some acceptance for its' ideas again?
5 .. Please read some history, and stop thinking of anti-fascism in terms of having a ruck with some boneheads, or exposes by "Searchlight" of yet another "Nazi" group that usually turns out to be "owned" by one of their mates at Special Branch.
6 ..It always has been.
Same as it's historically ben the police's job to protect the fascists.
7 .. I thought I had done.
7 .. no!
1 .. yes absolutely
2 er that would be the 'ANL member in 78 (77?) thru till the 8ts and then afa, primary school playground' .. but whatever
3 er that dear WAS my point .. that facism is just capitalism in a time and a place .. therefore the fight is against capitalism .. and occassionally against facism .. but UNTIL you defeat or start organising against capital you will not defeat facism .. and practically anti facism always falls down due lack of alternatives
4 because it is controlled by capital .. you and i will agree that its rise is almost entirely down to what thebosses are doing both thru the scum media, thru reactionary posturing and i do not doubt thru dark forces .. the trial of griffing was nonsense and benefitted only him and his party
5 not sure what you mean here .. i have studied in depth all varieties of facism and am convinced that it is purely part of capital and as such can only be defeated thru that
ViolentPanda said:That's why while I think it's right to tackle the manifestations of "Nazism" on the ground, that it's also important not to lose sight of the fact that Griffin may be playing a very long game.
For the very good reason that while they're (supposedly) "for the people" of B & D, they're not of the people.
Of course, if you're Durruti02, you won't be bothered by any of this because you'll "think anti fascism is wrong".
You're absolutely right that grassroots organising is the only effective way, but your point about the protection that they might need is well made.
but VP i agree with KJ and you on much of this
.. please read my post above that said" .. it would be the job of community orgnaisations to attack fascist goups as and when .."
i am not against attacking, politically and whatever else, facists, and i agree with both you and KJ that it IS right to expose nazis etc etc
BUT the point is that this strategy alone does NOT work .. and can often backfire and make protest voters actual bnp supporters .. and as KJ himself has emphasised many times re BnD .. unless progressive propaganda comes from progressive forces and does NOT end up telling people to vote NL,
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yeah, whatever.durruti02 said:7 .. no!
1 .. yes absolutely
2 er that would be the 'ANL member in 78 (77?) thru till the 8ts and then afa, primary school playground' .. but whatever
No. your point was "anti-fascism is wrong". Your words.
You also make the mistake of believing that fascism can be defeated. It won't be until human nature changes. The best that can be done is to keep it weak and disorganised. Taking your eyes off the fascist ball won't do that.
I think you're making an error of judgement if you believe that the bosses have control over the media, they don't need to, they're turds from the same arsehole.
And yet you usually react to fascism as if it's something that only involves a few educated blokes directing the actions of a bunch of scumbag boneheads, rather than reflecting on the sad fact that a hard right-leaning authoritarianism is pretty much institutionalised into our "establishment". Destroying capitalism doesn't gaurantee the destruction of fascism, at most it means it will be weakened, but as you'll know, given your in-depth study, fascism is resilient, and it's a past-master at mutating.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
ViolentPanda said:
I agree. The Hitler worshippers are still there in the bnp supporters and the attitude of 'we won the war which we shouldn't have fought and lost out'. I grew up with supporters of those like Lord Halifax and other Hitler apeasers saying that we should have joined Hitler and turned on Stalin.
ViolentPanda said:
Good point. Where Hitler succeded and Mosley didn't was to mobilise middle class opinion. Personally I think that it was the difference in personalities and cultures between the UK and Germany of the time that influenced this. Despite the Depression, the economy in Germany was ina far worse state than the UK's and we were also cushioned by the presence of the Empire. The Middle Classes were never as severely hit economically as the middle classes in Germany who were seeing thier country in turmoil and looked for a strong leader who could stop what they saw as anarchy.
I think that you are right in that Griffin would really like to get the support of those members of the middle classes who read the Daily Mail and are socially conservative in their attitude. The breakthrough could come with a house price crash. This would trigger a reduction on the unearned income of the middle classes. If these 'struggling' middle class conservatives (and there area lot of them don't forget) feel that they are being abandoned and that 'the others' are grabbing what they feel is their 'share' then they may well plump for the bnp.
Where this will happen first IMO is those areas where you have white working class people who have moved up the social scale but are ashamed of where they have come from / proud of their 'achievements' (sometimes these achievements are basically unearned income from selling their council house which allowed them to move from East Ham and Barking to Romford etc). These communties have an inbuilt social authoritarianism and tend to vote for candidates that expound such views for example Andrew Rossindell MP for Romford.
ViolentPanda said:
Griffin knows that his chances with the 'roses round the door Cotswold tory' are not great at the moment but if he can take seats like Romford and Harlow and maybe some similar seats in the North of England then the bnp will use these three or four Commons seats or at first European Parliament seats to build a strategy for targetting the Cotswold Tory type seats. I don't think the boneheads will go away but they may well be quitely moved into other organisations that the extreme right would use as muscle so as to bring a degree of separation from BNP the parliamentary party from the boneheads who can't really be told to fuck off at present.
The crucial thing for Griffin is to find plausible candidates. So far we've been lucky in that the bnp has chosen candidates who in the majority of cases would need to have Front and Back written on thier toilet seats. However we cannot rely on that being the case forever. Not every well spoken educated fascist is a barking mad loonspud like David Irving. They've only got to have the right candidates at the right time and following a run of anti immigrant guff in the mail etc they could have parliamentary seats.
Unfortunately the BNP are going to give John Cruddas in Dagenham a run for his money which is partially why he is starting to disassociate himself with tossers like Margaret Hodge.
ViolentPanda said:
Spot on!
ViolentPanda said:And even if you're local government was squeaky-clean it wouldn't make that much difference, because imho the "culture of cynicism" that the media has developed around the practise of government means that rather than believing, people will say "prove it", whereas the BNP only has to make allegations, and prove nothing.
The culture of cynicism is not all the fault of the media - look who occupies Number 10 for example.
Sadly I think that there is a 1:10 - 1:20 chance we will see a BNP Euro or Commons seat after the next General and Euro elections. I make that prediction based on what I'm hearing about attitudes to the big three parties and peoples general opinion of services provided by the state.
