Another teenager dies in knife attack (East London)

[Frankie Jack]

Detective Boy.. What percentage of knife/gun crimes are based on the fact that the perpetrators are from backgrounds that may be single parent/lower status ecconomicaly suggested as being the basic reason for this kind of statistically evaluated type of attitude...

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

But are they justified in feeling this alienated, really? It must surely have been *a lot* worse back in the 1980s when unemployment was 3 million +.

There are more opportunities to get jobs and education than ever before.

I know that things ain't perfect, but compared with the recession(s) in the 80s, when loads of jobs disappeared and in some areas, virtually everyone leaving school had to sign on, etc, the economy is doing OK.

Problem is, some people don't want to do "ordinary" jobs - they want lots of money to spend on flash and bling, and they want it now, but they won't work for it, and they won't apply themselves to learning anything, yet insist on "respect".

There are plenty of jobs to be had, especially in London. Otherwise we wouldn't have half a million people from Poland over here doing them, would we?

Giles..

Well, that's partly the problem Giles, yes there are plenty of jobs to be had, hence all the Polish people. But the jobs they do tend to be low paid, and the Polish people adjust their lifestyles accordingly, i.e. they share accommodation, sometimes sharing bedrooms. Their attitude to the job isn't that it's their livelihood, this is their life, to them it's a short term hardship, because of the exchange rate and earning capacity in Poland.

You're not comparing like with like here. I'm sure there are lots of crappy jobs and crappy living circumstances you'd put up with, in a different country, if it was short term, and if it enabled you to save up and take your savings home. But would you be willing to accept a low pay packet, and crappy living conditions if this was it? Not just a short term hardship, but if the only way you could survive was to share your bedroom with a couple of other people and eat supernoodles?

And an addition problem is that the government has spent the past decade telling young people that that those low paid "ordinary" jobs are beneath them.

The government has spent the past decade encouraging young people to go to university (get into massive amounts of debt), and get a fantastic high-flying well-paid job at the end of it.

The reality is that you're left with an underclass who are totally despairing, because the government has drilled into the population that if you don't go to uni, then you're nothing. So there's a whole load of young people who feel they are failures, feel they are nothing, feel as though they have nothing to look forward to.

And then the other group? The ones who went to university? Well, as tuition fees have hit home and students are getting into stupid amounts of debts, only to find out that they owe loads of money and either struggle to get a job (so many graduates competing for too few jobs at that level), or they get a low paid job that isn't the high-flying well-paid job that the government led them to believe they could walk into.

And at least in the 1980s, if you were 19 and not at uni, you could at least get put on some kind of YTS scheme with day release, trained for a job, and you got exploited financially, yeah, they were paid pocket money for a full time job, but at least they weren't getting themselves into thousands of pounds worth of debt like the young people today are.

Young people today do have it worse in some respects. A decade ago, there were thousands who were unemployed who received dole money.

I believe that the push to get, what is it 50 per cent (?) of the population, through uni, is a scam to massage the true unemployment rate in this country.

In the 1980s, perhaps tens of thousands of these young people would have been on the dole, because there weren't the job. Nowadays, there aren't enough jobs, but instead of receiving dole money, the young have been suckered into paying to go to uni and getting themselves into £20k worth of debt.

If you were an unemployed young person looking for work in the 1980s, by the time you started a job you were just at square one. For today's young people, when they start work, they're in shit loads of debt, that's a massive deficit, and it's going to take them till their 30 just to get to square one, never mind advance or make any progress.

 

[Star Dove]

Throwing a load of adoloscents/young adults into secure accommodation/prison will *not* solve the problem.

But somehow it's got to become unacceptable for kids to carry weapons and part of that is criminal sanctions. Although I don't like sounding like a Daily Mail journalist, for some people that has to mean the threat of prison time. For younger kids there's got to be meaningful community sentences.

It's seriously fucking worrying that in a time of full employment and falling general crime that young kids in certain areas are killing each other in increasing numbers.

 

[Star Dove]

But are they justified in feeling this alienated, really? It must surely have been *a lot* worse back in the 1980s when unemployment was 3 million +.

There are more opportunities to get jobs and education than ever before.

I know that things ain't perfect, but compared with the recession(s) in the 80s, when loads of jobs disappeared and in some areas, virtually everyone leaving school had to sign on, etc, the economy is doing OK.

Problem is, some people don't want to do "ordinary" jobs - they want lots of money to spend on flash and bling, and they want it now, but they won't work for it, and they won't apply themselves to learning anything, yet insist on "respect".

There are plenty of jobs to be had, especially in London. Otherwise we wouldn't have half a million people from Poland over here doing them, would we?

Giles..

You've hinted at the real underlying reason for all this shit:

The illegal drugs trade.

The only policy that will make any real difference in the long term is the legalisation of all drugs.

Once the control of the drugs trade is properly regulated and taken out of the hands of criminal gangs, then the young people who are involved in this shit will start taking up the opportunities you talk about.

We've got to remove the easy criminal option and legalisation of drugs is the only way to do that.

 

[detective-boy]

...the government should be investing more in education and training and also youth services.

But will the youth of today use them?

We've got the usual bleating about "the kids have nothing to do" all over the news again ... but I wonder just how many kids would be taken of the street if they actually went to school (and stayed there ...). Even as long ago as 1996 an identified crime "hotspot" turned out to be caused by kids from two different schools gathering at lunchtime (plus an hour or so - can't be seen to be back on time, not at all cool. Oh, No!) and damaging stuff, thieving from shops and robbing and assaulting each other.

And, strangely enough seeing as knives have only just been invented apparently, occasionally stabbing each other.

 

[detective-boy]

Detective Boy.. What percentage of knife/gun crimes are based on the fact that the perpetrators are from backgrounds that may be single parent/lower status ecconomicaly suggested as being the basic reason for this kind of statistically evaluated type of attitude...

No idea of the statistics, but this sort of crime in my experience features kids from very "normal" backgrounds, as both suspects and victims.

It never ceases to amaze me how many of the gun and knife weilding violent thugs who I have encountered have a solid family background, frequently (in the case of the black community) solidly church going. They honestly believe "My Johnny wouldn't do something like this" because they have absolutely no connection whatsoever with what the kids are up to and into.

The biggest factor has to be todays lack of respect for anything which is "good" and massive respect for anything which is "bad" (traditional meanings intended ... ). This refers mainly to the media who deify bad role models and sell their violent, drugged, bling lifestyles as something to aspire to. They are the ones who have the actual power to influence our society - not politicians, not parents, not police, not anyone else. Everyone can do their bit in their own little way, but only the media can reach almost every youth almost instantly.

When did you last hear anything like a responsible social message being hyped by the media? When did they last give a hearing to a "good", responsible role model?

 

[detective-boy]

The only policy that will make any real difference in the long term is the legalisation of all drugs.

Once the control of the drugs trade is properly regulated and taken out of the hands of criminal gangs, then the young people who are involved in this shit will start taking up the opportunities you talk about.

That, as I have posted numerous times previously, is right. The continued "war on drugs" sees only the effects of the drugs themselves - the most pernicious effect is the passing of vast amounts of wealth to gangsters and all that comes with that - violence, extortion, corruption ... and the ability to conscript willing, disaffected youngsters to the cause at grass roots level.

I could show you at least three street kids I am aware of who went from diaffected, hanging round on street corners to drug runner with lots of bling to low-level drug dealer with even more bling, BMW, 'hos, etc. ... to dead at the hands of another, in one case in less that two years.

 

[detective-boy]

...this is actually true...

What do you mean by "this"?

 

[ngeru]

A few years ago I'd never have worried about a 15yr old pulling a knife on me if we got into an argument, but it would certainly be in the back of my mind now.

A few years ago I wouldn't have even worried about walking the streets around home... then some asshole attacks me for my bag & this poor kid gets killed.

I just went by the boy's house barely 3 mins walk away. A small crowd of well-wishers & TV crew were gathered on the street, meanwhile a load of people were spilling out of what must've been his house. I just kept on walking as I didn't want to impose but I really feel for the lad & his family... It's such a waste & makes no sense at all.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

What do you mean by "this"?

Sorry, mistake, meant to write this isn't actually true. Have edited the post.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Am I right in thinking that assault by knife has only fairly recently be separately recorded and before all injuries against the person by weapon of one kind or another (eg brick, glass, knife) were lumped together?

 

[detective-boy]

Sorry, mistake, meant to write this isn't actually true. Have edited the post.

So, if I read the amended post right, you are saying the apparent increase in the use of knives is not related to the hyperbolic media coverage?

The youth workers who I know in the London area (several) ALL stress that the kids perceived need to protect themselves is behind the increased carrying, brandishing and using of knives. Much of this perception comes from their own peers but it is heightened by the coverage they see, the headlines they cannot avoid and the expressed moral panic of the adults around them.

The media coverage does not cause the problem. It does not cause the percetion of the problem, but everything I hear suggests that it largely fuels that perception. Which is what I posted.

Why do you say that it doesn't? Why does it have no effect?

 

[detective-boy]

Am I right in thinking that assault by knife has only fairly recently be separately recorded and before all injuries against the person by weapon of one kind or another (eg brick, glass, knife) were lumped together?

As far as standard crime statistics are concerned, I have never been aware of them being gathered in a way which distiguishes the weapon used. Obviously "offensive weapon" charges can be counted seperately where there has been no assault (but not by weapon, in the standard statistics), as can firearms offences, but when there is an assault the severity of the injury determines the classification, regardless of whether a weapon is involved. Shootings usually include a firearms charge as well as an assault charge, stabbings usually do not.

Police crime records (at least in most forces) are computerised and are capable of being analysed by most features of MO, including weapons used. This analysis is done internally and is used to inform various policing activity. But I am not aware of it being done systematically, across all forces, across any significant period of time.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

The youth workers who I know in the London area (several) ALL stress that the kids perceived need to protect themselves is behind the increased carrying, brandishing and using of knives. Much of this perception comes from their own peers

When my son was 11 after the first time of many times he was robbed coming home from school I had to prevent him from carrying a 6" nail in his pocket. An awful lot of children are so frightened (with very good reason indeed) of assault and robbery from other children they want to protect themselves. He has never carried a weapon, but he's certainly wanted to.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

As far as standard crime statistics are concerned, I have never been aware of them being gathered in a way which distiguishes the weapon used.

I just wondered whether knife crime has actually increased, or whether it was recorded differently now.....I know that changes in recording some offences has made them appear to be on the increase. People's perceptions are often skewed, for instance to read the papers now, you'd think every other criminal is a child-rapist, but actually that sort of crime has remained pretty much the same for a very long time

 

[likesfish]

a knife is a lousy weapon for protection
its actually quite hard to kill with a knife as I was taught in the military you want to stop someone there and then with out a lot of fuss knife really isn't the first choice.
but if you just want to scare someone if you stab someone just about anywhere you got a better than average chance of hitting something vital

 

[scruff]

Has anyone seen the MySpace page of the kid who was killed on Friday? There's a link up on BBC. His raps are full of "me and my boys pull up along side your car and spray it with bullets" type stuff.

 

[fat Andy]

What ever became of the good old punch in the face. We seem to have skipped this level of aggro entirely.

 

[detective-boy]

His raps are full of "me and my boys pull up along side your car and spray it with bullets" type stuff.

It is a dangerous and unhealthy aspect of this youth culture. I fail to see how anyone can argue otherwise any more.

 

[Boogie Boy]

It is a dangerous and unhealthy aspect of this youth culture. I fail to see how anyone can argue otherwise any more.

Perhaps the problem lies with the fact that many individuals are apparently unable to distinguish between the bravura posturings often found within this culture and real life?

BB

 

[detective-boy]

Perhaps the problem lies with the fact that many individuals are apparently unable to distinguish between the bravura posturings often found within this culture and real life?

But the bravura posturings found within the culture have become real life for many - perhaps traceable back to the east coast - west coast "war" in the States where many of the leading proponents of the culture actually fell victim to it in real-life ... or real-death, anyway.

 

[Boogie Boy]

But the bravura posturings found within the culture have become real life for many - perhaps traceable back to the east coast - west coast "war" in the States where many of the leading proponents of the culture actually fell victim to it in real-life ... or real-death, anyway.

Perhaps. This is part of a far larger debate regarding crime and youth culture, and how specific communities are/have been affected by the slow adoption of particular aspects of a particular US inspired culture. It isn't exactly clear what the link is between gun/knife/youth crime and parts of that culture which can often appear to glamorise gun ownership, gun use and notions of what it means to be perceived as a successful, masculine/feminine, attractive man or woman. I'm suspicious of the apparent attempts to link the two, perhaps in doing so there is an attempt to postulate and arrive at an 'easy fix' solution for the perceived problem - thereby ignoring the deeper issues and problems which underly youth crime.

It isn't something I have easy answers to.

BB

 

[detective-boy]

I'm suspicious of the apparent attempts to link the two, perhaps in doing so there is an attempt to postulate and arrive at an 'easy fix' solution for the perceived problem - thereby ignoring the deeper issues and problems which underly youth crime.

And I'm extremely suspicious of the apparent attempts to rubbish any potential link, perhaps in doing so there is an attempt to leave the way clear for those who make fortunes out of the culture (some of whom have somewhat less than legal business interests) to carry on making bling regardless of the impact on those they are, in effect, victimising.

Any newspaper or magazine spouting the homophobic, mysogynistic, violence and drug glorifying shite that some of this music spouts would be closed down within minutes ...

 

[ViolentPanda]

...homophobic, mysogynistic, violence and drug glorifying shite that some of this music spouts ...

I agree, Ted Nugent's albums suck.

Seriously though, of course there's a link, the difficulty is in gauging the degree to which the music exerts a direct influence on the actions of people who listen to it. Unfortunately the argument we most often see represented is one of polar opposites, that the music does or doesn't exert an influence, rather than an argument of degree.
It's a factor, but I suspect that it's a factor whose degree of influence varies wildly depending on many other influences (cultural, social, economic etc) on the individual.

 

[detective-boy]

Unfortunately the argument we most often see represented is one of polar opposites,

Something which applies in almost every debate today, it seems. Not least on U75!

 

[_angel_]

Who are you? John Reid's twin?

Throwing a load of adoloscents/young adults into secure accommodation/prison will *not* solve the problem.

There are too many young people in this country with no hope, who feel helpless and as if they have no future, nothing to look forward to in life.

Locking them up will just make the problem worse. Those kind of institutions are like criminal universities. You go in having done something daft and relatively minor, and come out (a) with a criminal record, which is going to really improve your employment prospects no end! and (b) having learned to do even more bad shit, and got into even more bad company.

Instead of inviting private companies to build (and make obscene profits from) PFI funded prisons, the government should be investing more in education and training and also youth services.

I agree sticking people in jail for longer and longer times will not work. These kids prob don't even know what the sentence is likely to be for carrying a gun or a knife.


I am so glad I'm not a parent in London although *apparently* this knife thing is going on all over the country, I don't know how much is true and how much is media hype.

I don't know what you can do except promote -genuine- family friendly policies for parents to be able to spend more time with their families. Instead of forcing lone parents back into long hours work then swivelling around and blaming them for what their kids get up to when they are unsupervised.

People make allowances for parents of babies and young kids, but teenagers are supposed to allowed out unsupervised.


Smaller schools and smaller class sizes might help kids feel less scared and in need of carrying a weapon, But that won't happen either.

 

[Pete the Greek]

These kids prob don't even know what the sentence is likely to be for carrying a gun or a knife.
QUOTE]


you joking? Course they do. It's in their interests to know what the likely consequences are for their actions.

Most people out there know about the 5 year mandatory for gun possession. They'd be fools not to.

 

[_angel_]

The whole point is that kids are *not* thinking about the consequences of their actions.. it's all the here, the now, me me me me!

If the current laws were working as a deterrent, nobody would be getting stabbed.

 

[Pete the Greek]

The whole point is that kids are *not* thinking about the consequences of their actions.. it's all the here, the now, me me me me!

If the current laws were working as a deterrent, nobody would be getting stabbed.

The laws are fine, it's the criminal justice system and the prison system that isn't.

I won't go down that road though, I'll only be labelled a fascist etc and I can't be arsed.

 

[_angel_]

I'm not usually a woolly liberal, but this time I will be. Locking up kids for mere possession of knives is a no brainer, they'll only learn more crimes in detention centres/ prisons. We need to get to the heart of the reason they need to carry them.