Another nightclub shooting...

[Dan U]

I've always been inclined to agree with the posters who've mentioned that gun and violent crimes in terms of who committed them reflect the area's they are in? (see mentions of liverpool, glasgow etc)

do accurate statistics exsist on a national level for murders, broken down by ethnicity/suspected cause/type/area and with the area ethnicity as well for comparison?

maybe the only way to get to the bottom of this common assumption is hard facts and not media conjecture?

 

[detective-boy]

What's the racial motivation in a black-on black killing?

None. I'm asking if you extend the "don't involve race in the equation" to those as well.

 

[detective-boy]

by the way, DB, I've always thought, and still think, that you are a valuable poster.

Thank you. The "white-on-white" label is irrelevant in that there is nothing to be gained in terms of investigation or understanding or possible prevention measures in simply identifying a hugely majority grouping. It would be useful if it were more closely defined - e.g. French on French or something.

I agree (as do the police service) that the black-on-black label is not ideal and, if they were starting again today, they would not choose it. But it was chosen at the start and the media have adopted it. It will take some time to break (they still refer to WPC's for Christs sake and the police service stopped doing so about 20 years ago!). I don't think you will see it in any direct comments from the police any more (you shouldn't, anyway, they aim to avoid it).

 

[detective-boy]

There wasn't much logic, it's just the money and uncontrollable anger of young - madly young - men and boys. Fourteen year olds shot as they waited for their patties. Show us the colour in that.

The phrase does not - and has never - intend to suggest that colour is in any way relevant to the motivation. It simply identifies a specifically prevalent problem, in a specific community, meriting a specific response.

Obviously there are murders over trivial issues in other communities but when you look at the proportionality they are very, very disproportionate within the black community. "Why" is the most important question to answer if they are to be stopped. It is certainly nothing to do with colour. I suspect it is all to do with social issues as mentioned. But are there other reasons at work? (I have seen music with violent lyrics suggested but have never seen that suggestion justified with research, but it is the sort of thing whihc may be there).

 

[detective-boy]

If it's a problem attributed to "Respect" according to Trident amongst other organisations where are these claims coming from?

Analysis of the motivations determined by each investigation - sometimes admitted by suspects, sometimes mentioned by witnesses / victims.

Not only because it makes me feel they are not really doing anything to solve this problem but also they seem to be more intent on drumming into us that the problem is here and here to stay.

If you think Trident is a waste of time, and if you think it having no effect then I suggest you make contact with / apply to join the Op Trident Independent Advisory Group. I think you'll find that they do not agree with you.

As for clearing up Trident crimes, the rate is improving but they are complex enquiries (largely due to the virtually random selection of victims in many cases - links between suspect and victim make murders much easier to solve) and because suspects frequently have connections abroad and flee the jurisdiction realtively often. If you are implying it is because of racism - the opolice can't be arsed - why the fuck have they spent fortunes on a dedicated unit (to the point where other communities are complaining that they haven't got one ...)?

 

[detective-boy]

How many "no significant issue" could really be "Criminal relationship motivated " if you knew the whole story?

Isn't "he looked at me funny" just a line?

Sadly not.

 

[detective-boy]

do accurate statistics exsist on a national level for murders, broken down by ethnicity/suspected cause/type/area and with the area ethnicity as well for comparison?

Yes. Haven't got any link. But you can rest assured that the police do not put millions of pounds into a specific unit if there is no objcetively justified reason.

 

[tarannau]

The Operation Trident advertising, which I'm guessing was paid for and supported by the Met, has been consistently terrible though. I can't find a link to view online unfortunately, but apart from the very early executions it's been typical public service shock advertising, with an unconvincing informer appeal. The attempted trendy 'stop the gun' executions were predictable, hackneyed and dated. It was like watching someone's Dad trying to speak in patois - unconvincing, slightly insulting in tone and a little embarrassing.

That said, I quite liked the large format 'morgue' displays. They had a more generic appeal and worked fairly well, although it's telling it was more about gun crime to the wider community, rather than making a creatively derivative attempt to target black youths. I think there was an award winning mag 'infotorial' piece as well, but I've never seen that. The most visible small scale posters have always been shit and more than a little divisive imo. Who commissions them?

 

[DJ Bigga]

DB can you not see that if there are people saying Trident isn't doing shit that there is a problem? Either with perception and/or publicity of successes?

I don't want a special Gun task force for my community. What I want is the fucking government and the ODPM (if it still exists) to look at what needs to be done on the street level.

It doesn't take a criminologist or an emininent ex cop to see that young people simply do not have enough to occupy their time and are running very short on positive male role models.
Those are two things the governement and indeed the police (working within Crime and Disorder Reduction Partnerships) CAN do something about without demonising the young black male. But why would they? It doesn;t suit the agenda why actually solve a problem when you can use it to strike fear and division into communities. Have old fear the young, black fear the white and vice versa.
Call me a conspiuraloon or whatever I really couldn't give a shit. But I think the shine off your met badge is blinding you. Stop being a cop for one second and see this problem from the angle of a person.

 

[DJ Bigga]

My tone is not meant to be patronising and I apologise if that is how it is perceived. But it could be said that it is equally patronising for you to dismiss the fact that I have spent years as a professional murder investigator, attempting to both reactively investigate murders and proactively prevent them happening, and tell me that you know better than I how to go about that

It's funny cos isn't that the point of a debate? If we all thought you knew best it'd be called fucking DB75 but it aint. Weird how you seem to think your apparent expereince with the police somehow makes your views more valid than anyone else. How do you credit those of us with life experience, those of us who've been on the receiving end of law enforcement, those of us who have been personally affected by death and murder, those of us continually lumped into a media sound bite cos we're not white. How do you credit those expreiences DB?

 

[detective-boy]

The most visible small scale posters have always been shit and more than a little divisive imo. Who commissions them?

Not sure. I would imagine Operation Trident but I would be very surprised if they are not all run past the Independent Advisory Group first.

I agree the advertising could be better. Sadly, like a lot of things, it is because there is very low involvement of youth in the IAG or any other function (consultation, monitoring, lay visitors, etc). That is an area which needs to be addressed with police oversight (and probably politics) generally I think.

 

[detective-boy]

Call me a conspiuraloon or whatever I really couldn't give a shit. But I think the shine off your met badge is blinding you. Stop being a cop for one second and see this problem from the angle of a person.

I can only comment with any experience / knowledge from a policing perspective. That is not to say that I think the police have all the answers. Far from it. As I have posted regularly, crime cannot and will not be solved by policing activity alone. Nor will the Criminal Justice System / wider penal policy solve the problems. They can only ever deal with the symptoms, rarely with the causes.

The police have been saying this for at least ten years now (prior to that they used to claim to have all the answers), and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 enshrined the responsibility of all public agencies to consider the impact on crime and disorder in all they do. But the reality is that apart from the police and local authorities (who have a statutory responsibility), none of the others get involved willingly.

The police can, and should, play a part in education / diversion / social deprivation, etc. But they are not resourced to take the lead nor do I think that it is right that they should.

 

[detective-boy]

How do you credit those expreiences DB?

You are totally misunderstanding what I am saying. I am NOT saying I know better than you, full stop. I am saying I know more about the investigation of murder than you unless you are a trained senior investigating officer and have experienced it.

And, on the other hand, you seem to think that because someone was/is a police officer they have no life experiences. Police officers and ex-police officers have life experience. Some of them have been on the receiving end of law enforcement. Some of them (including me) have been personally affected by death and murder. And they are continually lumped into a media sound bite cos they're cops.

You have far more experience of loads of stuff than me. But I have far more experience of loads of stuff than you. No-one is better than anyone else. We're just different.

 

[Erich Zann]

They won't, if they had no guns, they'd use blades.

No blades, they'd use any other tool to hand.

If it comes to it, they'd use their bare hands.

If someone is determined and angry enough to kill, they'll do it by any means.

I disagree with this entirely. It's one thing to pull a trigger in a seemingly detahed way, but it's something else to be face to face with someone, possibly bigger and stronger and fight them with your hands. This is why there are so many killings, because it's so easy to do with a gun. A knife will kill of course, but the fact you have to get up real close makes a massive difference.

 

[DJ Bigga]

I disagree with this entirely. It's one thing to pull a trigger in a seemingly detahed way, but it's something else to be face to face with someone, possibly bigger and stronger and fight them with your hands. This is why there are so many killings, because it's so easy to do with a gun. A knife will kill of course, but the fact you have to get up real close makes a massive difference.

So sadly true

 

[Leon]

I don't think DB's said anything particularly controversial on this thread...

As far as my experience of dealing with Trident, and hopefully I'll be doing it a lot more in South London soon , they work pretty well in the cicumstances.