Another nightclub shooting...
- Thread starter gaijingirl
- Start date
Unfortunately the Media seem to be telling us otherwise. Whilst I appreciate there does seem to be more of a problem with Shootings in the Black Community (Again What the Media are publishing), I don't think the problem is completely exclusive to this community.
Moreover, what's the success rate of Trident? Are they doing enough or is the blame completely attributed to the lack of communication or co-operation from within the Black Community to Trident and the Police?
Tricky Mickey
regular as clockwork
detective-boy said:
I know we all need and use shorthand, but I think "the black community" is such a lazy phrase.
"Black community leaders" is a bit better, I reckon. And that's just precison, not PC bollocks.
And take it easy, detective-boy. DJ Bigga's just lost a friend, here.
I think gun crime will drop the day carrying a gun or knife results in a lengthy sentence for the crime of "carrying a potentially murderous weapon".
That'd stop half the pricks who carry them just to gain kudos.
Sadly the mainstream media aren't really interested in issues affecting the black community (as I've posted here previously, as Ian Blair said (and got pilloried for) and as several individuals and groups dealing with non-crime issues (e.g. health) have said). All they want are hedalines and the scarier the better.Cowley said:
I have not said that shotings are exclusive to the black community. They are not. But when you break them down into context, there is statistically a huge disproportionality in relation to shootings over totally trivial reasons (that I gathered under the heading "respect" shootings and immediately got slagged off by DJ Bigga for - perhaps the eminent DJ has a better heading for the category?).
I have not got statistics to hand, but my experience, and recollection of statistics in some categories suggests:
- Domestic relationship motivated shooting - relatively rare in any community, no obvious disproportionality.
- Acquisitive crime motivated shootings (e.g. armed robbery) - relatively rare, black community perhaps under-represented if anything.
- Criminal relationship motivated shootings (e.g. squabbles amongst criminal gangs, suspected informants) - again relatively rare, no obvious disproportionality.
- Shootings over no significant issue (e.g. being looked at the wrong way, being cut up whilst driving, saying something out of order to a friend ...) - extremely rare until about ten or fifteen years ago, then increasing hugely, with very significant disproportionality in relation to both black victims and black suspects, accompanied by increasing levels of possession of real firearms with similar disproportionality.
Although the media do not represent all stories equally, there really are not dozens of white youths shooting other white youths, or asian youths shooting other asian youths (though there are some indications of disproportionality appearing here) out there and we just don;t get to hear of it. There are some yes, but in proportionality terms, in relation to total population figures, they are way less. And don't forget, this is not some police-generated statistic. This is a count of bodies on mortuary slabs and crimes with a near-100% report rate and near-100% basic suspect description availability.
Trident has had some success, but nowhere near enough. They attribute some of it to operational policing activity but much to the work being done by community groups. One of the successes of Operation Trident has been the strengthening of links with the community - as well as being disproportionately
affected by shootings over no significant issue, the black community has massively disproportionately mobilised itself to do something. (e.g. http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=5578&grp=55&cat=373, one of dozens of examples I could have chosen).
There are lots of areas where overt, covert or institutional racism affects crime statistics and policing policy. Sadly this is not one of them. There really are disproportionately more black youths shooting other black youths.
Denying this will not make it go away, nor will it help anyone understand why it is happening, how it is happening and what else can be done to stop it.
I appreciate your point about the black community not being the same as black community leaders. But I use the phrase I do - the black community - advisidly in this situation. Many of the initiatives HAVE arisen from the community itself. Many of the people now recognised as "leaders" weren't to start with. And the community itself had to beat up it's own leaders, as well as the police, to get them to take the issue seriously and to try to do something about it.Tricky Mickey said:
Sentencing policy is definitely something which needed to be addressed - I can remember a few years ago when it was by no means certain that unlawful possession of a real firearm would result in a custodial sentence. I think it is now - and I think we are seeing five years as being pretty much the starting point. But, as with much crime, the deterrent effect of sentence is far, far less impactive than the likelihood of being caught. And even that pales into insignificance against anything done to reduce the desire to offend in the first place. Education is a very important area ... and I am not at all sure we are doing all that could be done here.
Some successes, but nowhere near enough. And as an unintended consequence of making arrests and gaining convictions, there are a significant number of subsequent revenge shootings. I was speaking to an Operation Trident crime analyst recently and they quite often see last months witness becoming last weeks suspect becoming yesterdays victim ...Giles said:
detective-boy said:
Yes I do have a better heading, fucking murder! Because that's what it is one person killing another.
Don't take the media/politicians love of a nice soundbite/headline as a valid method of describing a situation. The reasons behind gun crime in London (both within and outside of the black community) are far more complicated than can be summed up in one convienient fit-on-a-front-page sentance.
And stop spouting bullshit about this being something "black Community" wanted. The black community also wants the government to deal with it's over representation in both the criminal justice and mental health systems. I don't see any special task forces being set up for that.
Also there are groups in this country who are continually demonised by both the media and politicians, I'm talking about , young people, single mothers, black men etc.
Trident is working as a tool to embed this demonisation in society. You see it in poster campaigns and hear it on the radio. Black on Black this and Black on Black that. As long as this society has people in it who are being made to continuosly feel like the bad guy, you'll get people who will not fight the stereotype and instead follow the path set out for them.
Now go fuck yourself, cunt.
To be honest, I find DB's patronising tone, mealy-mouthed parroting of this mystical (ie self-appointed) black community leader line, and dismissive attitude to Bigga's views at least as offensive as one swear word. Particularly given Bigga's personal interest and insight into this case.
Of course it's murder.DJ Bigga said:
But murder is far more complicated than can be summed up in a single word. There are dozens of different motivations for murder. If you do not address each on it's own (drawing such comparisons with others as are appropriate) you will not change anything.
Should we stop treating racially motivated murder as a specific issue too?
My tone is not meant to be patronising and I apologise if that is how it is perceived. But it could be said that it is equally patronising for you to dismiss the fact that I have spent years as a professional murder investigator, attempting to both reactively investigate murders and proactively prevent them happening, and tell me that you know better than I how to go about that.tarannau said:
And did you miss my post about my quite specifically using "the black community" rather than "black community leaders" in this context?
editor
hiraethified
We won't get much of a debate if it's full of people calling each other 'cunts' though, will we?tarannau said:
You may not like what detective-boy is saying - and I can see lots to disagree with - but his contributions offer a valuable insight here.
And you may not like me stepping in to politely ask DJ Bigga to tone it down, but I believe I was absolutely right to do so. This is too important a debate to have it turn into a cussing bunfight.
I have no problem with your response, bearing in mind your connection with this case. My post which appears to have set off this chain of events (#52) was meant to simply enquire as to your position. I should not have responded to the "End" which came back. Sorry.DJ Bigga said:
detective-boy said:
Where the hell have I dismissed your years of experience, or told you how to go about murder investigations? Show me. I may have huge reservations of the boneheaded 'Operation Trident' and 'black on black' focus, but I don't hold you personally responsible for that.
No disrespect, but if you think that the majority of the black community openly and honestly communicate with the police then you're fooling yourself. Distrust runs deep, as you know, and there tends to be a self-selecting group of leaders and gobshites (Lee Jasper stand up) that have a disproportionate say of what the 'community' thinks. It's your confidence in these community pronouncements and supposed beliefs that disturbs me, especially when you're being as dismissive and insulting of people like Bigga, with a genuine involvement with and understanding of the folks on the level of Show and others. It's the lack of sensitivity and the dogma that gets me.
No hard feelings DB, I just felt you were unnecessarily prescriptive in this case.
Kameron
Kamoceratops
These two are on top of recent shootings at Egg on York Way and Scala so let's not turn this into a North South thing since it plainly isn't.lighterthief said:And people always go on about Hackney being rough
Seriously, there seem to be way more shootings south of the river.
Tricky Mickey
regular as clockwork
DJ Bigga said:
Brilliant post. I won't comment on the last line in the original post, that's between you two.
But when did we last read about White-on-White murder?
And the most famous White-on-Black murder of recent years led to no convictions...
And when it's a Black-On-White murder, rape, robbery, whatever, the whiff of prejudice always seeps into the reporting, somehow.
South-east Asian-On-Chinese murder?
Defining the killer and the killed through colour/race terms is, in my opinion, rather revealing.
e2a "race terms"
As it happens I have never automaticaly trusted self-appointed community leaders. Some are excellent and really do represent the views of the people they say they represent. Others are entirely self-serving pricks. But I have never found the black community much more distrustful as a generality than any other in London, when dealing with an individual investigation. I certainly don't recognise the "wall of silence" comments sometimes made by investigating officers. There are youth issues of distrust, sure, but they extend across all communities.tarannau said:
So you don't agree with any recognition of racial motivation as part of the investigative process or as part of any effort to understand causation and prevent others?Tricky Mickey said:
Tricky Mickey
regular as clockwork
What's the racial motivation in a black-on black killing?
Read my words, rather than reading INTO them please. I never actually said what you suggest. I just said it was "rather revealing" to define the killed/killer along racial lines.
To answer the question: "So you don't agree with any recognition of racial motivation as part of the investigative process or as part of any effort to understand causation and prevent others?"
No.
However, I know that,say, in Liverpool and Glasgow, most of the dickheads carrying guns are white, late-20s to mid-30s, and are involved in the higher levels of the coke trade.
But the killings/shootings these men carry out are never defined as "white-on-white" killings.
I'm not denying that research and reporting has proven links between ethnicity and inner-city gun crime. I just get a bit jaded with the color-blind reductionism of it all, and a lack of critical analysis of the researchers and reporters.
Every youth shot/stabbed within a 3-mile radius of my gaff when I lived in Brixton was black, killed by other black lads. But in Liverpool, it was white lads killing white lads. Mainly over money, drugs, girls and reputation in both cases.
Poverty, lack of opportunity, shit education, and simple lack of compassion for others explain it far more clearly than racial divisions, for me.
Read my words, rather than reading INTO them please. I never actually said what you suggest. I just said it was "rather revealing" to define the killed/killer along racial lines.
To answer the question: "So you don't agree with any recognition of racial motivation as part of the investigative process or as part of any effort to understand causation and prevent others?"
No.
However, I know that,say, in Liverpool and Glasgow, most of the dickheads carrying guns are white, late-20s to mid-30s, and are involved in the higher levels of the coke trade.
But the killings/shootings these men carry out are never defined as "white-on-white" killings.
I'm not denying that research and reporting has proven links between ethnicity and inner-city gun crime. I just get a bit jaded with the color-blind reductionism of it all, and a lack of critical analysis of the researchers and reporters.
Every youth shot/stabbed within a 3-mile radius of my gaff when I lived in Brixton was black, killed by other black lads. But in Liverpool, it was white lads killing white lads. Mainly over money, drugs, girls and reputation in both cases.
Poverty, lack of opportunity, shit education, and simple lack of compassion for others explain it far more clearly than racial divisions, for me.
Tricky Mickey
regular as clockwork
by the way, DB, I've always thought, and still think, that you are a valuable poster.
hendo
Fish finger sandwiches
detective-boy said:
What Tricky says is right; I remember covering loads of shootings in Salford in the eighties and nineties, white on white, and everything to do with deprivation, the massive amount of money available from drugs and the control of club doors, and yes, the 'respect' issue rearing its head on a regular basis.
But as I remember the gangs tended to divide up on racial AND geographic lines, so there was the Salford Crew, mainly white, and they were in a terrifying war of attrition with young men from Gooch Close two miles away in the mainly black Moss Side. But then they in turn clashed with their virtual next door neighbours, in Doddington Close.
There wasn't much logic, it's just the money and uncontrollable anger of young - madly young - men and boys. Fourteen year olds shot as they waited for their patties. Show us the colour in that.
To be honest I think the whole image and methods of Trident are at best tacky and at worst tackless.
It stinks of hypocrisy IMHO....It's a "We'll help them but we'll make sure everybody knows what THEY are getting up to" type operation, to add insult to the wounds words such as "Respect" Shootings drags it down to another level. If it's a problem attributed to "Respect" according to Trident amongst other organisations where are these claims coming from?
I originally asked questions such as their (Trident's) success rate...because I barely get to hear about them finding suspects.....to me that's worrying. Not only because it makes me feel they are not really doing anything to solve this problem but also they seem to be more intent on drumming into us that the problem is here and here to stay.
I find it strange that Black suspects who commit crimes on Victims outside of the Black Community seem to be identified straight away....where as the Black on Black crimes remain unsolved for quite some time....
