Another group of cowardly cnuts go down

[likesfish]

don't belive much in justice now retribution I can get my head around that
a year for each mugging thats 150 years can apply for parole in 50 years seems fair enough to me

 

[TAE]

I thought you had me on ignore?!

 

[Das Uberdog]

Not at all; it would have saved a lot of time if you could have stated this from the outset...or did you only just think of it? Be that as it may, your inclusion of rehabilitation under the auspices of promoting public safety still only tells part of the rehabilitation story.

You might also want to consider whether the notion of rehabilitation for the sake of the offender's own good (as opposed to the protection afforded society) might also be a goal worth pursuing; rehabilitation could be a desirable outcome in and of itself beside the social safety benefits it produces.

Also perhaps you have now had time to reconsider your rather odd statement regarding justice which I picked up on in the post you have partially replied to...any more thoughts yet; or do you still stick with the notion of justice being neccessarily immutable?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

But rather than assume the best from me, you preferred instead to assume that I hadn't in fact thought of any way in which re-habilitation could be used in defence of the population or in line with my general rule, and chose to challenge me upon it; it's the arbitrary challenging of ideas which I haven't actually had or expressed which I find irritating. Like you're superior enough to set me little tests and exams for your own benefit, in order to watch me scurry to explain and justify myself on grounds which aren't necessary.

Your question should have been; 'so do you see rehabilitation as something in defence of the public?' But it wasn't, you chose instead to be an arse.

Cheers - Da Dawg

 

[jæd]

Your question should have been; 'so do you see rehabilitation as something in defence of the public?' But it wasn't, you chose instead to be an arse.

Nope, that would be *you*...

 

[Das Uberdog]

Phwoar, hot stuff Jadder. I've been TOLD...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

But rather than assume the best from me, you preferred instead to assume that I hadn't in fact thought of any way in which re-habilitation could be used in defence of the population or in line with my general rule, and chose to challenge me upon it; it's the arbitrary challenging of ideas which I haven't actually had or expressed which I find irritating. Like you're superior enough to set me little tests and exams for your own benefit, in order to watch me scurry to explain and justify myself on grounds which aren't necessary.

Your question should have been; 'so do you see rehabilitation as something in defence of the public?' But it wasn't, you chose instead to be an arse.

Cheers - Da Dawg

So you still haven't been able to come up with either some explanation of your 'immuatble justice' line (which as I stated previously is an odd position for an SWPer to take), or get to grips with the idea that rehabilitation may be about more than social protection (which is the only way you have belatedly let rehabilitation into the discussion following a number of failed opportunities to do so). These questions aren't about being an arse (either me asking them or you apparently struggling to answer them), but rather about thinking through the implications of what you have written; whether or not you choose to do that thinking through doesn't preclude others from doing so.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Das Uberdog]

On the basis that 'justice' is an abstract concept and not something which can be measured;

- The 'justice system' should be used only to protect wider society, not to persecute criminals as an end in itself

- Rehabilitation can be a form of progressive social protection reducing the need for elongated incarceration

... This somehow implicates an 'immutable' theory of justice, rather than a theory which questions the existance of justice itself?

Regardless, on rehabilitation you're deviating from the actual essence of the argument (which I'm trying to retain time and time again) which was in fact nothing at all to do with your opinions on the positive aspects of rehabilitation, simply that believe that the 'justice system' shouldn't be used other than to protect society, however I still wasn't too unhappy to see the two young men shown in the initial article locked up, despite the fact I had my reservations about it's long-term effects for the benefit of society.

Oh yeah, and also that I still think that their behaviour was sociologically motivated.

If you'd have been less patronising and outright rude from the outset I might have been more receptive to your further questioning of my specific beliefs. But you weren't.

 

[pk]

Fuck the lot of them. Hope they die in jail.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

On the basis that 'justice' is an abstract concept and not something which can be measured;

- The 'justice system' should be used only to protect wider society, not to persecute criminals as an end in itself

- Rehabilitation can be a form of progressive social protection reducing the need for elongated incarceration

... This somehow implicates an 'immutable' theory of justice, rather than a theory which questions the existance of justice itself?

Regardless, on rehabilitation you're deviating from the actual essence of the argument (which I'm trying to retain time and time again) which was in fact nothing at all to do with your opinions on the positive aspects of rehabilitation, simply that believe that the 'justice system' shouldn't be used other than to protect society, however I still wasn't too unhappy to see the two young men shown in the initial article locked up, despite the fact I had my reservations about it's long-term effects for the benefit of society.

Oh yeah, and also that I still think that their behaviour was sociologically motivated.

If you'd have been less patronising and outright rude from the outset I might have been more receptive to your further questioning of my specific beliefs. But you weren't.

When you said that 'I think that there's no such thing as 'justice' which could even theoretically be implemented by a mortal and non-omnipotent being', the obvious implication is that for such a thing as justice to exist it would need an immortal and omnipotent basis, that is it would have to be the same over time and in all circumstances, hence immutable (not that I'm not saying you believe in immutable justice but rather that you are wrongly trying to dismiss justice as a useful concept by saying that it can only exist on the basis of immortality and omnipotence). All I asked is why you couldn't conceive of a justice that could be relative, contested, socially agreed on and put into effect with genuine accountability; you still haven't got back to me on that.

Also you still have the outstanding question of rehabilitation as good thing in and of itself, which the justice system might want to pursue besides any social safety benefits it might afford; remember I'm asking this because you stated that such social safety should be the only concern of the justice system...I'm trying to clarify if you've really thought through the implications of such a position.

As for being patronising, well I probably am; it is a little hard not to be when confronted with such apparently authoritative posts which don't quite hold together when look at in a bit more detail. If you think I have been rude - rather than merely a little sharp - then I think Das Uberdog needs to get out a bit more. If you take offence at a gentle soul like me I hate to think what would happen were you to be confronted with some genuine 'big dog' rudeness.

Cheers – Louis MacNeice

 

[detective-boy]

I thought you had me on ignore?!

Not ON ignore - I just ignore future postings of the same old bollocks as before. There's nothing to say you won't come up with something worthwhile in relation to other matters ... even Jazzz might manage that!

 

[Blagsta]

I'm pretty sure they know what they've done... Any amount of liberal bleating isn;t do as much good as some time away from the rest of the society. Ideal in horribly overcrowded prisons not fit for humans, because they've shown theit not yet ready to be considered humans...

I hate this sort of stance. They're human beings. Human beings are capable of some terrible things. Denying that is pointless.

 

[likesfish]

yes there human
yes they deserve a really miserable few years prefably the rest of there life you are what you do.in this case violent gits

 

[Blagsta]

Can you formulate that into English please?

 

[Darios]

What these cunts needed was to suddenly find everyone else on the tube getting up and smashing their fucking faces in instead of sitting there, terrified because a) no one else would get up with them and b) thinking only the police are "allowed" to use violence.

Its because of cunts like this that I'll probably end up in prison myself.

 

[durruti02]

the sympathy for whats happenned to the left overs of our society is great ... pk doies his usual macho turn .. everyone is a consequence of something .. the kids may well be scum and do deserve to be locked up no question .. but i just love the way the london trendies who buy their drugs off these no hopers then slag/condemn them when they turn nasty

these kids are the creation of thatcherism of our get rich quick bling society .. they are thatcherism defined .. go out and get what you want .. there is no such thing as society

and sure that ap rhys lad didn;t deserve to die .. but he on what hundred grand plus a year??? .. the kids be thinking 'why does HE deserve that' why shouldn't i have a cut of that

you want this society .. you get these people .. you know i have a 17 year old and some of his stories about other kids are grim .. but he as much as the old people can SEE that we have raised a generation of dead souls .. they are victims as much as teh people they rob

and those who have profitted from this society have got NO right to condemn

 

[Darios]

Thanks durruti, I'll use that as my defence in court.

No more personal responsibility for me, no way! It's all everyone else's fault.

That's right your honour, broken home, impoverished background. I didn't do it, even though I did.

It wasn't me. Mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy. Free stuff.

 

[Blagsta]

Thanks durruti, I'll use that as my defence in court.

No more personal responsibility for me, no way! It's all everyone else's fault.

That's right your honour, broken home, impoverished background. I didn't do it, even though I did.

It wasn't me. Mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy. Free stuff.

What the fuck are you on about?

 

[pk]

the sympathy for whats happenned to the left overs of our society is great ... pk doies his usual macho turn .. everyone is a consequence of something .. the kids may well be scum and do deserve to be locked up no question .. but i just love the way the london trendies who buy their drugs off these no hopers then slag/condemn them when they turn nasty

I don't buy drugs off scum like this, never have, the only drugs I take are coffee and aspirin these days anyway, so you can take your childish smears and stick them up your arse.

You're just another full-of-shit so-called socialist living off a trust fund ain't ya?

Why don't you hand around Willesden Junction or Neasden and try and "befriend" these kind of gangs then, see how long before they turn "nasty".

 

[tbaldwin]

the sympathy for whats happenned to the left overs of our society is great ... pk doies his usual macho turn .. everyone is a consequence of something .. the kids may well be scum and do deserve to be locked up no question .. but i just love the way the london trendies who buy their drugs off these no hopers then slag/condemn them when they turn nasty

these kids are the creation of thatcherism of our get rich quick bling society .. they are thatcherism defined .. go out and get what you want .. there is no such thing as society

and sure that ap rhys lad didn;t deserve to die .. but he on what hundred grand plus a year??? .. the kids be thinking 'why does HE deserve that' why shouldn't i have a cut of that

you want this society .. you get these people .. you know i have a 17 year old and some of his stories about other kids are grim .. but he as much as the old people can SEE that we have raised a generation of dead souls .. they are victims as much as teh people they rob

and those who have profitted from this society have got NO right to condemn

I think i kinda know what your getting at.But i dont think its as clearcut as that. Me and you in some ways have benefited from this society and so have our sons but it doesnt mean that we cant be critical of it or the people who commit anti social crimes in it.
But London and other places are full of rich and poor people living in the same areas and your right their is a price to be paid for gentrification etc.
And yeah perhaps people shouldnt be so suprised these things happen but its preety human to be shocked when confronted by these things.

 

[warszawa]

What they do when they get out of jail, hopefully a very long way in the future, is their choice. If they continue to act like this, back they go.

For the murderers here, at least, maybe there shouldn't be a second chance. As they may murder again, effectively we're experimenting with innocent people's lives.

 

[warszawa]

Two fathers married to their jobs, one of whom lives in the USA? Good people perhaps, good fathers? Maybe not.

Not that I'm particularly sorry these two hools got banged up (though I stress that I do have my grievances with the 'justice system' and doubt that this will really benefit society as a whole in the long run) but I'd still say that loose family background may have well influenced these lads behaviour... if not in a class based poverty sense, then in a post-modernist 'emotional' sense.

Maybe, but what's more important is that we label these murdering cunts as 'murdering cunts' and not pussyfoot around seeming like we're trying to excuse them with the odd token disapproval thrown in.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Thumbs up to the police for getting this bunch of fucking cowardly cunts off the streets.

Has it come to this, that we are supposed to be impressed when the police manage to get the job done?

I dont envy police what they do but living where I do, Iknow there are tonnes of crimes they know a great deal about but dont seem to act on. Police need community co-operation, I know they try and are improving a bit, but there is a long way to go.

 

[detective-boy]

LOL @ D.B. - wrong again.

We got there in the end though - I think Taffboy gwyrdd must have been asleep or something ...

 

[untethered]

For the murderers here, at least, maybe there shouldn't be a second chance. As they may murder again, effectively we're experimenting with innocent people's lives.

If you're referring to whole-life imprisonment rather than the death penalty, I'd support you on that.

 

[warszawa]

If you're referring to whole-life imprisonment rather than the death penalty, I'd support you on that.

People can argue over the ethics of life in prison over execution but for me it's much more important that murderers of this kind are not allowed to pose a danger to the public ever again through whatever means necessary.

These in particular are not actually murderers, so maybe they should one day see the light of day again. But, only academically speaking would I discuss understanding these brutal thugs. I wouldn't ever deal with their carefree violence which they subjected innocent people to, in such an 'understanding' way. Some people only understand one thing, I'm afraid.

 

[durruti02]

Thanks durruti, I'll use that as my defence in court.

No more personal responsibility for me, no way! It's all everyone else's fault.

That's right your honour, broken home, impoverished background. I didn't do it, even though I did.

It wasn't me. Mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy. Free stuff.

i suspect that is exactly the you behave .. even though i doubt you had the impovrised broken home etc

 

[durruti02]

I don't buy drugs off scum like this, never have, the only drugs I take are coffee and aspirin these days anyway, so you can take your childish smears and stick them up your arse.

You're just another full-of-shit so-called socialist living off a trust fund ain't ya?

Why don't you hand around Willesden Junction or Neasden and try and "befriend" these kind of gangs then, see how long before they turn "nasty".

er no trust fund! :-D .. council worker scum for last 20 years ..

and around these 'scum' everyday .. its where i live .. your too casual condemnation shows you are, as you so often accuse others of, 'surplus' .. if you are not part of a solution you are part of a problem

these people are humans .. deeply deeply fucked up humans .. but tbh way less dangerous than george bush/blair etc or yer average drunk driver .. yep i hate the way they contribute to fucking up our world .. and particulaly my sons world ... but your macho bullshit don't solve anything ..

sometimes i also think just some of these kids out of the picture and all will be well .. but that is rubbish and you and i know it ..

and the truth is that yes someone DOES NEED to befriend these people .. you're so macho pk maybe you'd be good at it mate

 

[JHE]

... deeply deeply fucked up humans ..

In a way, maybe...

If I understand you correctly, you think the young delinquents are very psychologically damaged, suffering from some psychiatric disorder. I'm sceptical about that. The young delinquents I come across (admittedly not the very worst of them) do not seem psychologically strange to me.

I think there are fucked up sub-kulchas - part of a more widely fucked up society, no doubt - but, at the individual level, the only relevant peculiarity of most young thugs and robbers is slight: that they've bought into the idiotic and fashionable 'gangsta' twaddle more than most people. Among their friends, that's pretty normal and well-regarded.

Depending on circumstances, violence and even killing can be perfectly normal. It does not depend on great psychological peculiarity. Bandits and pirates don't have to be mad to rob and kill. Soldiers in wartime kill without having to be bonkers. Comments from young gang members, including some of the tributes to recently murdered teenagers, strongly suggest that they see themselves in exactly that way - as soldiers (for their gangs, rather than for King & Country).

 

[TAE]

We got there in the end though - I think Taffboy gwyrdd must have been asleep or something ...

How does post #82 equate to what you predicted in post #45 ?

Not ON ignore - I just ignore future postings of the same old bollocks as before. There's nothing to say you won't come up with something worthwhile in relation to other matters ... even Jazzz might manage that!

Sure, just call it bollox, that's really mature.

 

[detective-boy]

Sure, just call it bollox, that's really mature.

If I think it's bollocks, I'll call it bollocks. Can't remember what it was now, seeing as you seem to be bringing the issue from another thread...