What gives you this impression?
Another Green councillor
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What gives you this impression?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Stuart Crafts dialogue with Oxford Trades Council a few months back.
Would expect accusations from political activists on IWCA positions hostile to Trade Unions, but independent observers at this meeting came to the same conclusion, who are not politically alligned and don't really know much about IWCA.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
From IWCA Faq
Millions of workers now operate in businesses employing 25 people or less. Understandably, though they might personally benefit from being in a union, collective bargaining through trade union representation is not an option for them.
Unions too have adapted themselves by operating more like businesses, offering pensions and private health care to potential recruits. AND AGAIN, WHILE THIS MAY BENEFIT THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER, THERE IS NO LONGER ANY WIDER SOCIAL OR POLITICAL ROLE WHEREBY UNIONS CAN ADVANCE THE INTERESTS OF THE WORKING CLASS AS A WHOLE.
Seems pretty clear to me?
Millions of workers now operate in businesses employing 25 people or less. Understandably, though they might personally benefit from being in a union, collective bargaining through trade union representation is not an option for them.
Unions too have adapted themselves by operating more like businesses, offering pensions and private health care to potential recruits. AND AGAIN, WHILE THIS MAY BENEFIT THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER, THERE IS NO LONGER ANY WIDER SOCIAL OR POLITICAL ROLE WHEREBY UNIONS CAN ADVANCE THE INTERESTS OF THE WORKING CLASS AS A WHOLE.
Seems pretty clear to me?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Sian Berry was the candidate last time round, though she was still in third place in party terms. Why didn't she stand again? Given her candidature for mayor I guess she'd have done much better.
Sian had just started her new job and had said she wanted to give it 100% (she gave up her last job to be able to campaign full time in the mayoral campaign). Everyone has to be able to earn a living.
That said, even if we had Sian standing, the Lib Dems ran the "Torriano" story to great effect in the byelection, misrepresenting the position of the Green councillor who voted on the issue. It worked.
I think if Sian had stood, we would have done better because of the personal vote, but the Lib Dem campaign would still have damaged us. Not nice politics from the Lib Dems but it is what we have come to expect.
http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/2008/101608/letters101608_05.html
This is the meeting where a socialist said the working class was "twisted", and the role of socialists is to "untwist" them?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's talknng his usual smearing bollocks - see the Oxford IWCA's work with the CWU. All reported on the Oxford IWCA site
http://www.iwca-oxford.org.uk/
http://www.iwca-oxford.org.uk/
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Don't let the fluffy localist rhetoric, sandals and third world cuts fool you. Despite a smattering of decent socialists who have joined them either out of disillusionment with the hierarchical left or because of a background in ecological struggles, the Green Party in power would be just as nasty as New Labour.
For all the anti-capitalist rhetoric of the GreenLeft, sadly in power, the Green Party are often little different to Labour, Tories, or LibDem - the latter two whom they have been quite happy to prop up in local coalitions & they invariable vote for neoliberal cuts in local srevices, they have no perspective for how their local councillors can use their position as a platform for socialist agitation, instead preferring the classic reformist pap of "wait until we have a Westerminster Green Party government", hence the incongruity betwen left wing rhetoric of some members, and the "realism" of the Green Party in local government.
They are also thoroughly electoralist in approach, their London manifesto while containing some social democratic policies was notable by sections on Green small business but nothing on building environmentalism in the workplaces and trade unions.
For all the anti-capitalist rhetoric of the GreenLeft, sadly in power, the Green Party are often little different to Labour, Tories, or LibDem - the latter two whom they have been quite happy to prop up in local coalitions & they invariable vote for neoliberal cuts in local srevices, they have no perspective for how their local councillors can use their position as a platform for socialist agitation, instead preferring the classic reformist pap of "wait until we have a Westerminster Green Party government", hence the incongruity betwen left wing rhetoric of some members, and the "realism" of the Green Party in local government.
They are also thoroughly electoralist in approach, their London manifesto while containing some social democratic policies was notable by sections on Green small business but nothing on building environmentalism in the workplaces and trade unions.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
This is true, but many of them depict themselves as a Left alternative to the mainstream parties, whereas they operate according to the very same assumptions.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Udo, even on thse boards I'm sure most of these criticisms have been dealt with...
but here goes....
Hmmm...you look more like a hippy than me I'd warrant.
Smattering? I spect slightly more than that, and probably slightly more than in any grouping. Especially one that gets people elected.
Well, no we wouldn't. Look at the manifesto.
For sure the GP are reformist and so on, but "as nasty as New Labour" is a smear without foundation.
When/where have we been "in power" to support this assertion?
Already been a number of threads on this genuine area of fault i'll grant you...
Invariably? Do you have the voting records to hand?
We had a whole thread discussing what GPEW councillors could / should do...
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=205275&highlight=councillors
Here ya go....
Well, yeah, we probably aren't all that interested in that...
Says who? I-ve never heard this type of thing....
Surely you Leninsts are far more at fault for your "come the revolution" deferred gratification, no?
More later
Being on the left doesn't necessarily mean you cling to the idea of organising in the workplace though. The greens are a "left alternative" in that their policies are to the left of Labour and the Tories.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
I think Udo's critique is over the top.
The Green Party have only shared power in three places as far as I am aware, Lancaster with Labour and LibDems, Oxford with LibDems and Leeds with Tories (!) and LibDems. The Oxford experience was negative and has not been repeated. The Leeds experience involved 3 councillors from just one ward and Lancaster was generally uncontroversial as most council decisions are. Other Green councillors have voted against cuts and supported progressive battles. The Oxford Green councillors have been active supporting striking workers.
I think the Greens are mistaken to try to go into coalition with these parties, but to describe them as as 'nasty' as New Labour is very mistaken and actually lets New Labour off the hook. They have to have a serious debate about their approach to governmental and council power, but the majority of Green Party councillors and members are well-meaning people who ought to be allies of the left rather than our opponents.
The Green Party have only shared power in three places as far as I am aware, Lancaster with Labour and LibDems, Oxford with LibDems and Leeds with Tories (!) and LibDems. The Oxford experience was negative and has not been repeated. The Leeds experience involved 3 councillors from just one ward and Lancaster was generally uncontroversial as most council decisions are. Other Green councillors have voted against cuts and supported progressive battles. The Oxford Green councillors have been active supporting striking workers.
I think the Greens are mistaken to try to go into coalition with these parties, but to describe them as as 'nasty' as New Labour is very mistaken and actually lets New Labour off the hook. They have to have a serious debate about their approach to governmental and council power, but the majority of Green Party councillors and members are well-meaning people who ought to be allies of the left rather than our opponents.
it'd undoubtedly be controversial for the greens to go into coalition at westminster with any of the three, and say we get 2 MPs in at the next election and Cameron needs wants them to prop up a minority government (as the SGP are doing with the SNP) then I would hope that he'd be told where to stick his deal
If we did get Caroline Lucas elected in Brighton Pavilion and Adrian Ramsay elected in Norwich South, we'd be winning two Labour held seats, with a clear left of centre agenda on social and environmental justice.
Should there be a hung parliament, you'll not find Greens attempting to prop up either Labour or the Conservatives, but working on the issues on a case by case basis.
Should there be a hung parliament, you'll not find Greens attempting to prop up either Labour or the Conservatives, but working on the issues on a case by case basis.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
You are an *awful* long way back in Norwich south, with 7.4% of the vote
Brighton P is your best hope, and doing an deal with the LibDems would be the only way you might stand a chance there.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
..continued.
Of course the GPEW is thoroughly electoralist in its approach.
That's what its there for.
However, unlike the Leninists et al, The Party is not the be all and end all. It is one, possibly minority, strategy within a diverse movement(s). There are other vehicles for other appraoches within the green movemnt that are not mutually exclusive from the GP.
Horses for courses innit?
As for workplaces etc., Udo, I suggest you check out the GP Trade Union group, they seem pretty active to me.
My own impression is that you (Udo) are pretty attracted to the GP, but it lacks the neccesary revolutionary cachet that has become important to you, but having been so badly let down by the whole Respect debacle you-re retrenching in Marxist dogma at the mo....
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
It's ridiculous to say that the Green Party 'in power' (I presume Udo meant nationally or at some higher level) would be like the Greens' record on local councils. Local government is a completely different kettle of fish so to speak. You have to make certain alliances sometimes to achieve populist campaigns. A significant amount of the work is depoliticised to an extent. Sections of the far-left attach way too much national importance to council seats, people just want a good local represenative to be on their side.
The Green party isn't a revolutionary or socialist party, it is a progressive environmentalist party that includes some socialists. I see alot of honesty and good-will in the Greens and would be a supporter if I lived in England.
Might I also risk a riposte by asking what's wrong with supporting green small businesses? It sounds positive to me?
The Green party isn't a revolutionary or socialist party, it is a progressive environmentalist party that includes some socialists. I see alot of honesty and good-will in the Greens and would be a supporter if I lived in England.
Might I also risk a riposte by asking what's wrong with supporting green small businesses? It sounds positive to me?
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Firstly, we shouldn't romanticise small businesses, did not Starbucks start off as a nice neighbourhood coffee shop in Seattle? (then there were two of them, then three, and now all the independent coffee houses are being squeezed out by the big chains everywhere in the Western World).
Secondly, small businesses should receive some support and green enterprises ditto.
The trouble is - and this is the central flaw in the Green Party and why it is bogus as an environmental party - is that their manifesto concentrates on Small green businesses ie. an orientation on the Middle Classes rather than on the mass of working people, what I am criticising is the emphasis.
Now the majority of people don't work in small green businesses, so this is not the terrain where fighting for an ecological future is gonna be fought out.
Nor is green small business central to stopping climate change.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
From http://www.greenparty.org.uk/policies
That-s the first thing you find when looking for GP policies on their website.
So, not focussing on small green businesses at all imho.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
First paragraph in Enterprise, public services and the economy section of the GP's website.
Do you disagree Udo?
It doesn't then go on to concentrate on "small green businesses".
At all.
Or the Work, welfare and pensions section where amongst other things its states
Now, don't get me wrong, the GPEW has some pretty fundamental flaws regarding a complete transformation of society, of course. But, Udo, your charicature seems a little inaccurate and more based on yer own prejudices than owt else, no?
Incidentally have you looked at the GP Trade Union group yet?
Do you disagree Udo?
It doesn't then go on to concentrate on "small green businesses".
At all.
Or the Work, welfare and pensions section where amongst other things its states
which sounds a pretty radical proposal to me....
Now, don't get me wrong, the GPEW has some pretty fundamental flaws regarding a complete transformation of society, of course. But, Udo, your charicature seems a little inaccurate and more based on yer own prejudices than owt else, no?
Incidentally have you looked at the GP Trade Union group yet?
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
How? How have Green Party elected representative promoted this? You see the GP orientation on almost exclusively elections means that these words are meaningless. Remember the old dead-end of resolutionary socialism?
I recall Tony Cliff once contrasting a militant strike with the sweeping left wing policies being proposed by the Labour Left in the 70s. He said that the strike might have seemed small fry compared to the grandiose schemes of a mainstream party, but the difference was that, however small, it concretely advanced the course of working class struggle whereas the Labour Left radical policies were stillborn.
And what do they propose:
"promoting small scale local businesses"
From the perspective of us who support workers power, this is ambiguous:
The idea that once it was relevant to say that unions had too much power hardly squares with the commitment to co-operatives and democracy? The phrasing suggests that the Green Party favour the old style social contract between bosses and employees.
I actually heard Derek Wall on Radio 4 the other week talking about Waitrose as a model for the new society.
dennisr
the acceptable face
If their chocolate fingers are anything to go by its a fair point...
*runs awat from thread after making trite comment*
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
This was with the local tades council, not CWU.
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geun...XP=1225894065/**http://www.iwca.info/?p=10100
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Of course Udo, to a point you are correct. The GPEW is not the IWW after all, though one could be a member of both with no qualms.
Nor is it a Marxist revolutionary party.
So you can criticise it for not being these things, but it ain't aiming to be them.
The GP is a Party aiming to win elections, GP members may well be doing the things you criticise them for not doing. merely using another more appropraite vehicle. After all, there are better ways of organising in yer workplace than thru a political party, no?
...and on the unions. Unions (note the big "U") are not always advancing the progress of w/c struggle. Read the ultralefts on this, remeber the role they had in Paris 68, Italy 77 etc etc. You can criticise TUs and still advocate workplace democracy and co-operative run workplaces etc. Now, i doubt that these ideas were quite what the GP had in mind when they wrote what you quote, but still.
You have to remember that the GP is merely a vehicle, not the destination.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
"Companies can instead of issuing shares and having by law to maximise profit, whatever the consequences, can be run by mutuals with the cash going to workers. The best example of this is the staff policies of the John Lewis Group, who own Waitrose.
What about ZOPA - a peer to peer bank, where borrowers and lenders pick their own interest rates? How far away is that from sub prime.
In Venezuela I met workers who run their own factories and saw massive permaculture city farms. We need to put ordinary people in control of the economy, we need to think rationally about what to produce. The economics of free software and social sharing is sweeping the world."
http://www.greenparty.org.uk/speeches/66
This seems his thinking
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
what point are you trying to make ludo? it really isn't clear. can we expect a criticism of elephants tomorrow, for not being a donkey?
And, needless to say, the policies you are criticising are still at least as 'left' as those of the party you were raving about only a few months ago.
And, needless to say, the policies you are criticising are still at least as 'left' as those of the party you were raving about only a few months ago.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
You're almost wrong- the majority of people in Wales that are employed, work in what are characterised as Small-to-Medium Enterprises. So in some particular parts of the world it might be crucial to encourage green versions of these enterprises.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Surely this is what is happening through the attempts to build an environmental movement within the trade unions, the idea of introducing green reps, the TUC documents on "greening the workplace etc?", the question is whether this is couched and related to these enterprises in terms of the workers or romanticising small enterprises. For example, we probably all think that Local Farmers Markets are generally a good thing, but they don't really provide a way to break the stranglehold of multinationals (such as Tesco) on the food we eat, or an alternative source of food for the mass of people.
The reality is that many small businesses are dens of low pay and poor working conditions. If small businesses offer staff decent pay and conditions then maybe they should be extended cheap credit, lower business rates and rents paid for by taxation on big business and rich. A socialist policy might even be to offer grants and incentives for small businesses to transform into co-operatives, it would also be good if local councils had the funds and resources to step in and take-over failing small enterprises that might face closure - on the basis that become co-operatives - to save jobs and incomes especially if they are central to community life.
Chilango said:
Sorry, my point was that the Green Party often offer utopian rhetoric but in practise are very realist, or more specifically that there is no real strategy of how they will implement these. For example, grassroots organising in workplaces would naturally be one of the primary ways to build workplace democracy, but the Green Party organising in the unions is negligible.
Or more specifically, the Green Party ofter no road to a sustainable Britain, as they share the same assumptions and method as the mainstream parties
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