Ann Widdecombe vs the Benefits Culture

[northernhord]

I'd like to shit in her Mouth after a sloppy curry.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

or are you just a lazy sponging hypocrite who doesnt even have kids to look after as an excuse

No but it's clear you're a fucking moron who has no idea about my circumstances

 

[MANCS_MURPH]

I'd like to shit in her Mouth after a sloppy curry.

No northernhord, I'd recommend doing that to the Trade Union members who helped make the programme. it probably wasn't Doris karloff's idea to make this programme so she's not to blame. It's the middle class media bastards I'd shit over.

 

[northernhord]

No northernhord, I'd recommend doing that to the Trade Union members who helped make the programme. it probably wasn't Doris karloff's idea to make this programme so she's not to blame. It's the middle class media bastards I'd shit over.

So what was the trade Unions involvement then, if they were involved they are sumbags

 

[wishface]

Please tell me what self respect you get from doing a job for the same money as (or less than) benefits?

This self respect angle is such bullshit. If you need a job to tell you who you are and how to be then you have no fucking hope.

Self respect comes from within; it isn't something can bestow beause you are conforming to societal norms.

And nevermind how self respect is supposed to come from having a mind numbing, shit, poorly paid hell job.

Does anyone think anyone really gives a damn as you sit there paying the government your taxes while you pack boxes or answer phone calls?

 

[rhod]

This self respect angle is such bullshit. If you need a job to tell you who you are and how to be then you have no fucking hope.

Self respect comes from within; it isn't something can bestow beause you are conforming to societal norms.

The point is that getting up & into a daily routine DOES give you hope, (compared to sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle) and a determination to better your circumstances. In all the times I've emptied bins, or assembled widgets in some godforsaken factory I never lost sight of the fact that this was a TEMPORARY thing to get some food on the table.

I've met some extremely interesting people along the way that I never would have met sitting at home waiting for something glamorous and all-fullfilling to drop into my lap from nowhere, and have often found that one thing leads to another (in more ways than one!).

Maybe I was "stupid" - maybe I could have made a few more quid in benefits here and there - but from my experience if you appear to be keen to work and show initiative, you will progress.

 

[mrs quoad]

I've always managed to get self-respect out of being in shitty, minimum-wage jobs that (probably) paid below what I could've claimed in benefits

I even found that when I was living in a squat, homeless and nigh-on penniless - having some form of employment (even if it was only working as a night-time drag queen, ha) - gave me some greater sense of 'purpose' / structure no matter how vacuous or inane that might've seemed from outside.

I've (personally) got a strong work ethic; actually - personally - I would rather be worse off in work than claim benefits, if that's the (blunt and simplistic) option. If I can support myself, no matter how shitty it might be, I'd rather do that because some of my self-respect and motivation (and I'm only talking about me here) does come from that part of my life. That drive and that purpose. I'm also never going to be promoted on benefits, ha, and the vast majority of work(s) I've done have come along with a variety of other Things - contact with people, time out of the house, a distraction for x hours, whatever. Above all, contact with other people outside the house. That said, I don't have a family.

tbh, this whole thread comes down to - "do you believe in separating people into the deserving and undeserving poor?"

The welfare state was predicated on an ideal of full employment, and an assumption that unemployment benefits were there for people who couldn't find work. Or who were too sick to work. But alongside a fundamental assumption that everyone was 'deserving' poor because everyone *would* contribute to society if they *could* / had the option. If I'm completely honest, there is occasionally a part of me that's been slightly cautious about putting e.g. people with serious depression / stress and people with lifelong physical disabilities in the same benefits category as people who're scripted 120mls of methadone a day. IMO it doesn't necessarily do incapacity benefit wonders, or people on it for (e.g.) non-drug-related reasons wonders, and does open it up (potentially) to the good ol' deserving / undeserving poor line.

Then again - someone on 120mls of methadone IS undeniably pretty incapacitated, ha. Certainly not in a place to be working heavy machinery, maybe not in the best of places to be doing customer services, and if they're using chaotically then probably no business is going to be best off putting them around too many people / in front of too much money

Oh, but deserving / undeserving. I'm cautious. Very cautious. It's easy to turn it into a binary debate, with one side quoting the Worthies and the other side quoting the Micks. But human beings are never that simple. I hate to see the hopelessness, and the segregation, and the blankness of some of the clients I used to work with and, hell, some of my close friends - whose lived experience was being shut out, who couldn't give a shit, and who just wanted to get to a place where benefits were their only aspiration. The peak of everything they ever wanted for themselves or their families. 'An alright bird', kids, gyro, use a bit on 'payday'. Fucking intelligent people, caring people, with a huge amount to offer - but who are never going to broaden their horizons in x way, challenge themselves in x way, participate in x kind of life for no other reason than that they cannot envision it being worth it, don't want to take the chance.

IMO it's more about pathological communities and structures, pathological governance and pathological societal priorities than pure-and-simple pathological individuals. Exclusion, exclusion, exclusion. So yes - why should people give a shit. Why should people share what (partly) drives me - a powerful work ethic and twenty-year (plus) aspirations. Why should work be fetishised. Why shouldn't benefits be enough. Why should anyone be ruled by that whole ethos of contributing, participating, involvement in a 'work' community to 'contribute' to an invisible 'society' that gives fuck all hope, meaning and aspiration back.

I've given my all to shitty jobs because there's always potential pride and satisfaction there. For me, at least. There's always something that can be found there. Again, for me, at least.

But again - I appreciate that maybe I'm normatively pathological in the extent of my hopes, dreams, work-ethic and aspirations. Ha.

 

[mrs quoad]

NB: I fully appreciate that's written from the perspective of a single bloke with no kids in full physical health. Mental health negotiable.

 

[wishface]

I've always managed to get self-respect out of being in shitty, minimum-wage jobs that (probably) paid below what I could've claimed in benefits

I even found that when I was living in a squat, homeless and nigh-on penniless - having some form of employment (even if it was only working as a night-time drag queen, ha) - gave me some greater sense of 'purpose' / structure no matter how vacuous or inane that might've seemed from outside.

Purpose and structure can be found anywhere; they aren't about self respect.

Again this idea that people without work must be bored and boring (income limits aside) is just two dimensional.

I am totally against wage slavery. I'd rather top myself than spend my life at a supermarket checkout or whatever. That would utterly do my head in, and I jest not. What the fuck kind of life is that?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Purpose and structure can be found anywhere; they aren't about self respect.

Again this idea that people without work must be bored and boring (income limits aside) is just two dimensional.

I am totally against wage slavery. I'd rather top myself than spend my life at a supermarket checkout or whatever. That would utterly do my head in, and I jest not. What the fuck kind of life is that?

I think that's a little bit harsh on the people who do 'wage slave' jobs, alot of people in these jobs actually don't mind their jobs but I understand why you feel that way as I do too (dons flame suit).

The point I was making was that the job centre are shit in helping you get a job you want to do or at least a job you'd feel comfortable with, the training they offer is just things like cv training and basic I.T, I have asked them repeatedly for advice on college training, training on the job schemes etc but I hit a brick wall.

I think what gets people like smokedout's backs up is the idea that I might be taking 0.00000000000000000000001p (if that) of his NI/Tax contributions and living the life of riley on it and programes like this help reinforce that view, allowing them to wade in and attack people even when they know nothing of the person's circumstances, what it's like on benefits or how the benefit system works. Sorry pal but I would hate labouring as i'm sure people who labour would hate the job I wanna do, it's not gonna help me train for the area I want to work in but it will help with causing pain to my permanantly broken hand and speed up it's decent into arthritis, so yeah please give me the number

I wonder how people feel about those that do work and yet still claim housing benefit, cause let's face it, they can still pay the rent on their own it's just more of a struggle for them or what about, as already mentioned, tax evation by the rich.

If you exclude state pensions the total funding for social security benefits is around £50bn http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/276096.stm

Total tax evasion/avoidance costs the government around £85bn http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/...tax-evasion-cost-the-uk-start-at-£75-billion/

And let's not forget those pesky dead people who claim £57mil, the fucking scroungers http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6402703.stm

As usual it's poor people who get the snearing comments and prejudice

 

[mrs quoad]

Purpose and structure can be found anywhere; they aren't about self respect.

Again this idea that people without work must be bored and boring (income limits aside) is just two dimensional.

I fully appreciate that. Note that I've specifically not actually posted out that's relevant to your reply

I am totally against wage slavery. I'd rather top myself than spend my life at a supermarket checkout or whatever. That would utterly do my head in, and I jest not. What the fuck kind of life is that?

Fine! Absolutely fine, and more power to you

So what about people who are willing to do shitty jobs? Should their pay be upped? Should 'opting out' of work be an equally valid choice for those who are healthy and fully able to work? Is unwillingness to do something someone doesn't want to do a valid reason for being supported by the state? What is unique about someone who opts out of a 'boring' job that makes them more worthy than the people on the tills? Are they more geniousic (?)? More intrinsically worthy people? Do their politics justify letting someone else serve 'em at t'tills? Are they, heck, just intrinsically more creative people whose spare time should be seen as such? Should we create a new class of Epsilons specifically for those wage-slave jobs - maybe Huxley had it right - and the Alphas can play badminton and / or develop their own extra-social ties and lives?

What - I guess - are fundamental human rights? Are there rights without responsibilities? Is opting out of uninteresting work but opting into statutory support one of those fundamental human rights? And - again - I appreciate that that's a very broad continuum from mothers of young children right through to the easily-stereotyped Mick. People - of course - have a very broad spectrum of reasons for opting for x benefits / x situation, whatever those situations might be. Woo @ human variety!

IMO 'uninterestingness' is a pretty dire reason for not working, and I'm fully aware that I'd struggle with it. I - again only personally - do not feel that I (again only personally) would be justified in not paying my way / supporting myself financially if I was able to. Again, interestingness has never been a benchmark criteria for the shitty jobs I've done; but fully appreciated that's only because that's where my personal drive / baggage comes from. And that personal drive has always come from what I've seen as a pretty fundamental aspect of my left-wing beliefs (as I understood them) re: tax / working. Society and participation isn't an option based on more or less interest, for me at least. Though again, on that same note, fair play to anyone who's up for living on benefits. I would struggle (in terms not only of money, but what I've posted above); and of course that's my stuff.

 

[wishface]

I think that's a little bit harsh on the people who do 'wage slave' jobs, alot of people in these jobs actually don't mind their jobs but I understand why you feel that way as I do too (dons flame suit).

The point I was making was that the job centre are shit in helping you get a job you want to do or at least a job you'd feel comfortable with, the training they offer is just things like cv training and basic I.T, I have asked them repeatedly for advice on college training, training on the job schemes etc but I hit a brick wall.

Not at all; I got plenty of respect for someone who sticks with a crap job. I'm not demeaning them at all, their life is for them to process and figure out. IN fact it's the state and the sosciety we live that's demeaning them by using concepts such as self respect and purpose to patronise people and fool them into believing that an uncaring state really gives a damn beyond taking their taxes. YOu could do the same sort of crappy retail job, as i have, in a charity shop, but then all you get is society moaning more about no paying your way. I don't think any employer having been told about me working in Oxfam for a while ever took it as seriously as they would have had it been comparable paid 'proper' work. You see it all means nothing.

But yes the JC are shit. I got no help at all from them; no training, no advice, nothing whatsoever accept the cold stare of the staff as she processed the often totally unsuitable (location more than anything) list of vacancies for me to assimilate. That's also to say nothing of how they dehumanise and threat you like shit, while lying to you and renegging on their promises.

 

[wishface]

I fully appreciate that. Note that I've specifically not actually posted out that's relevant to your reply



Fine! Absolutely fine, and more power to you

So what about people who are willing to do shitty jobs? Should their pay be upped? Should 'opting out' of work be an equally valid choice for those who are healthy and fully able to work? Is unwillingness to do something someone doesn't want to do a valid reason for being supported by the state? What is unique about someone who opts out of a 'boring' job that makes them more worthy than the people on the tills? Are they more geniousic (?)? More intrinsically worthy people? Do their politics justify letting someone else serve 'em at t'tills? Are they, heck, just intrinsically more creative people whose spare time should be seen as such? Should we create a new class of Epsilons specifically for those wage-slave jobs - maybe Huxley had it right - and the Alphas can play badminton and / or develop their own extra-social ties and lives?

What - I guess - are fundamental human rights? Are there rights without responsibilities? Is opting out of uninteresting work but opting into statutory support one of those fundamental human rights? And - again - I appreciate that that's a very broad continuum from mothers of young children right through to the easily-stereotyped Mick. People - of course - have a very broad spectrum of reasons for opting for x benefits / x situation, whatever those situations might be. Woo @ human variety!

IMO 'uninterestingness' is a pretty dire reason for not working, and I'm fully aware that I'd struggle with it. I - again only personally - do not feel that I (again only personally) would be justified in not paying my way / supporting myself financially if I was able to. Again, interestingness has never been a benchmark criteria for the shitty jobs I've done; but fully appreciated that's only because that's where my personal drive / baggage comes from. And that personal drive has always come from what I've seen as a pretty fundamental aspect of my left-wing beliefs (as I understood them) re: tax / working. Society and participation isn't an option based on more or less interest, for me at least. Though again, on that same note, fair play to anyone who's up for living on benefits. I would struggle (in terms not only of money, but what I've posted above); and of course that's my stuff.

Man, I wish I had the answers.

Certainly people should get a fair days pay for a fair days work. I'm a socialist in the sense that I believe in a bottom line of equality and objective fairness. But people always argue the toss about what's fair (more than £5.35 for starters!).

What I would say is that I've seen a number of occasions where people offer the same position to multiple applicants but offer differeing pay. The idea of wages based on experience. That is bullshit. Employ me based on experience, but pay me the same as the other people doing the same position - and make that a fair rate. If you can trust me and believe me capable of doing X then pay me for it. Don't fuck peopel around because they don't have as much experience - if you are willing to hire them in the first place!

Now if someone wants to take a 'crappy' job, well good luck to them, doesn't mean they should be exploited. What's important to me isn't the job per se, it's that you are doing something you basically enjoy. I want to do something that involves me creativity because I believe that a life lived without creativity is not a life lived at all. I want to do something interesting and worthwhile - not check items on a fucking till for some supermarket monster machine. That's meaningless. You might as well join the Borg!

 

[treelover]

I wrote to the BBC about that series saying how it could compromise very delicate parliamentary discussions on the issues(as if!) , 3 months later i got a very defensive reply> it does seem strange that when green papers on welfare come up, so do these programmes. One can also see this er, 'syncronicity' in the tabloids: a recent increase in 'scrounger/fiddler stories has been noticeable( i have a yahoo news alert on the subject which SWAN researchs.)

Yes, i think that was the one. There was certainly a sense in the welfare rights world that this was just too coincidental to have taken place by accident. Just because you're paranoid, don't mean their not after you....

 

[wishface]

'Shop a scrounger' (though that's not the language used) adverts are everywhere these days. Nice.

 

[rhod]

I don't think any employer having been told about me working in Oxfam for a while ever took it as seriously as they would have had it been comparable paid 'proper' work. You see it all means nothing.

Well, that's their loss. I would personally have far more respect for an employment candidate who had been working in some sort of capacity, (whether paid or voluntary) rather than someone who had a big black hole on their CV whilst they were waiting for something "suitable".

As far as Job Centres go, I would agree that they are less than impressive in terms of giving you good advice and job selections. My best advice is to sign up to a few employment agencies, and keep hassling THEM (in a friendly way, of course) for work rather than waiting for the phone to ring. Once you've helped to get them out of the shit at short notice, they'll put more (and better) work your way.

 

[MANCS_MURPH]

So what was the trade Unions involvement then, if they were involved they are sumbags

I was talking of those people involved in the makng of the programme who are TU MEMBERS.........NUJ, BECTU, electricians etc. Where are the unions when the working class are being pilloried?

Dare I mutter "They wouldn't do it to the.........." (Fill in other group of people who it is not PC to criticise)

 

[treelover]

Mancs, you are so spot in, the liberal consensus doesnt seem to extend as far as those on benefits, disabled claimants, its what i and others term, the hierarchy of oppression


btw, have a look at this website, i have some involvement in it.

 

[northernhord]

I was talking of those people involved in the makng of the programme who are TU MEMBERS.........NUJ, BECTU, electricians etc. Where are the unions when the working class are being pilloried?

Dare I mutter "They wouldn't do it to the.........." (Fill in other group of people who it is not PC to criticise)

Ah, gotcha

 

[bluestreak]

This self respect angle is such bullshit. If you need a job to tell you who you are and how to be then you have no fucking hope.

Self respect comes from within; it isn't something can bestow beause you are conforming to societal norms.

And nevermind how self respect is supposed to come from having a mind numbing, shit, poorly paid hell job.

Does anyone think anyone really gives a damn as you sit there paying the government your taxes while you pack boxes or answer phone calls?

i get far more self-respect sitting at home enjoying unemployment than i do working a shit job. but i get more self-respect than that doing a job that is interesting and stimulating and worth getting out of bed doing.

 

[treelover]

btw, welcome to the boards, do post on p/p