Animal Right programme on BBC2 now
- Thread starter zenie
- Start date
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Interesting programme. It's always a shame how animal rights protestors come across as nasty, unpleasant human beings when I'm sure lots of them aren't so bad, really. Surprising to hear Singer agreeing with animal testing to find a cure for Parkinson's and so forth. The ALF will be nail-bombing him next. Funniest moment was the pathetic protestor shouting at the builders to do something useful with their lives. No sense of irony some people. 
Macabre
digiratti
goldenecitrone said:Interesting programme. It's always a shame how animal rights protestors come across as nasty, unpleasant human beings when I'm sure lots of them aren't so bad, really. Surprising to hear Singer agreeing with animal testing to find a cure for Parkinson's and so forth. The ALF will be nail-bombing him next. Funniest moment was the pathetic protestor shouting at the builders to do something useful with their lives. No sense of irony some people.
I found that protestor funny too
I agree that the anti protestors on the street came across as pricks but IME the ones on the street handing out leaflets and shouting down megaphones largely are pricks. They dont talk with you, they shout at you; they accuse you of closed mindedness, yet wont listen to your point of view; they claim you dont know the facts, yet when you quiz them on the science they know bugger all.
I have no problems with people who are anti animal testing, its the people who's life experinces have led them to make a moral decision (animal welfare (i'm also vegi)) and thus think that everyone who doesnt agree with them is evil incarnate/closed minded/wrong/etc and feel its their job to force their opinion upon others that annoy me.
edit: because I dont read my posts before I send them.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
I think when it comes to Animal Rights even the most militant of campaigners will to a degree have some hypocricy in thir lives. Animal suffering touches everybody directly or indirectly and there is no escaping it. Which is why even though the jury is still out for me on animal testing I try not to think about the quagmire that these issues raise. Because its a sticky wicket and a difficult set of principles to apply oneself to with absolute rigidity.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Good.zenie said:One of the most pro animal testing programmes i've seen I think!
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Only if they are organic.Pingu said:the old me would have wanted to burn your house down for that...
Can I just throw some eggs at you instead?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
In what way was it biased toward animal testing exactly? Everyone was given an equal amount of rope to hang themselves from (AR loonspuds, slightly creepy science guy, pro-Test smuggery) and managed to do it some way or another? What it comes down to is that the results of the research that Tipu has done have benefitted tens of thousands and shows that, in this specific area of research, that animal testing has had massive benefits to humans.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who supports cosmetic testing in the UK, or speculative research, but something like this...
Thought it was a very well balanced documentary meself.
Why? it's true - the brain has no nerves in it so can't feel anything.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who supports cosmetic testing in the UK, or speculative research, but something like this...
Thought it was a very well balanced documentary meself.
Why? it's true - the brain has no nerves in it so can't feel anything.
i unfortunately didnt see the entire doc..thought the welsh female scientist came across very well countering claims made by the ALF that lab animals are willfully tortured.she convinced me that these tests in the lab would help improve the quality of life for humans...
also liked the fact she mentioned that many scientists have been afriad to speak out because of the extremists..she came across as a very stable,intelligent,thoughtful, kind and balanced indidvidual.do the ALF have spokespeople like that? not seen them to date on any of these type programmes..
sideline..the young pro testing guy who had the website was horrendous (i really wanted to punch his smug face! ) i
sure ive been a veggie a very long time,i love animals but do value human life above the life of a rat or monkey! if the animals havent died for nothing(such as cosmetic tests)i do support testing..
i find it ABSURD that someone would consider themselves a defender of animal rights and would choose to eat meat
utterly hypocritical!
no offense to anyone personally,just my opinion.it baffles me!
also liked the fact she mentioned that many scientists have been afriad to speak out because of the extremists..she came across as a very stable,intelligent,thoughtful, kind and balanced indidvidual.do the ALF have spokespeople like that? not seen them to date on any of these type programmes..
sideline..the young pro testing guy who had the website was horrendous (i really wanted to punch his smug face!
) isure ive been a veggie a very long time,i love animals but do value human life above the life of a rat or monkey! if the animals havent died for nothing(such as cosmetic tests)i do support testing..
i find it ABSURD that someone would consider themselves a defender of animal rights and would choose to eat meat
utterly hypocritical!no offense to anyone personally,just my opinion.it baffles me!
subversplat
writer of wrongs
I've not got much time to respond at the mo, but is this programme repeated at all or online for download? I'd like to see it and argue about the programme itself, rather than have yet another barney about who likes torturing animals and who doesn't
lostexpectation
New Member
that protesting guy, disecting hearts in his spair time!! delightful where he get those hearts from, did he eat the rabiit after wards, if he that makes it slightly different
the 'ask him if his child was sick', shows how they think everybody else is stupid..
nice bit there about the cage vs chair description, I thought that was the best part of the prog, imagine that monkey siiting in front the computer in that tiny cage for months nad months on end every day, having it hand forced to do things etc, not a good advert for animal testing.
do parkinsons sufferers suffer pain? apart from the other symptoms?
it was interesting how the doctor said giving the monkey parkinson wasn't painful, i doubted that, it would certianly be very detrimnetal to the monkey.
I was surprised how springer saiad parkinson research was okay, but he din't seem to give it very much, thought, I don't know if ihe'swrite another book, saying giving monkies parkinson would be ok.
the lead AR guy didn't seem too much of an arsehole, I had low expectations.
I have to say i wasn't convinced at all that they weren't other options, I was left thinking one can of petrol and that whole building would go up in flames, job done. (ps for BB if he's reading I live in Ireland and have no intention of protesting vivsection), arson is very dangerous, it can lot sof unintended consequences, but if we're talking an empty building its not violence either.
the 'ask him if his child was sick', shows how they think everybody else is stupid..
nice bit there about the cage vs chair description, I thought that was the best part of the prog, imagine that monkey siiting in front the computer in that tiny cage for months nad months on end every day, having it hand forced to do things etc, not a good advert for animal testing.
do parkinsons sufferers suffer pain? apart from the other symptoms?
it was interesting how the doctor said giving the monkey parkinson wasn't painful, i doubted that, it would certianly be very detrimnetal to the monkey.
I was surprised how springer saiad parkinson research was okay, but he din't seem to give it very much, thought, I don't know if ihe'swrite another book, saying giving monkies parkinson would be ok.
the lead AR guy didn't seem too much of an arsehole, I had low expectations.
I have to say i wasn't convinced at all that they weren't other options, I was left thinking one can of petrol and that whole building would go up in flames, job done. (ps for BB if he's reading I live in Ireland and have no intention of protesting vivsection), arson is very dangerous, it can lot sof unintended consequences, but if we're talking an empty building its not violence either.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Wiki on Parkinsons
So potentially the monkey would feel pain, altho given it's lower level of sentience the larger symptoms of parkinsons would be considerably less distressing for a creature that is less self-aware than a human; a human being would know and understand both what the disease meant upon diagnosis and have to live with the awareness of what was happening to them throughout the progress of the disease, not to mention the affects on family and friends.
I will admit to some bias here - one of my best mate's grandad died of Parkinsons and it was fucking awful to see him degenerate (anyone who has had relatives who have succumbed to Alzheimers will have an idea of what it's like for both sufferer and family etc) and quite honestly while the image of the monkey in the cage was distressing, compared to the suffering caused by his illness to both himself and his family I take the view that it's a tragic necessity until either accurate computer modelling of the brain or self-submitted human test subjects are the norm.
What exactly are you trying to say here? The because he wants to be a surgeon and likes dissecting animals (which is not an unusual hobby for many kids who want to become biologists or surgeons) he's some kind of freak? Or is the shit he's taking on this thread because he's a tory boy? Would he be getting a better reception had he come from an estate or had authentic w/c credentials?
So what do you suggest then? Computer simulations aren't complex or accurate enough, and human testing at the stage animal testing is used (pre-clinical trial) is completely out of the question ethically (if you want to know more about that read up on medical ethics and the impact of Nazism and previous examples of testing on humans).
wiki said:
So potentially the monkey would feel pain, altho given it's lower level of sentience the larger symptoms of parkinsons would be considerably less distressing for a creature that is less self-aware than a human; a human being would know and understand both what the disease meant upon diagnosis and have to live with the awareness of what was happening to them throughout the progress of the disease, not to mention the affects on family and friends.
I will admit to some bias here - one of my best mate's grandad died of Parkinsons and it was fucking awful to see him degenerate (anyone who has had relatives who have succumbed to Alzheimers will have an idea of what it's like for both sufferer and family etc) and quite honestly while the image of the monkey in the cage was distressing, compared to the suffering caused by his illness to both himself and his family I take the view that it's a tragic necessity until either accurate computer modelling of the brain or self-submitted human test subjects are the norm.
What exactly are you trying to say here? The because he wants to be a surgeon and likes dissecting animals (which is not an unusual hobby for many kids who want to become biologists or surgeons) he's some kind of freak? Or is the shit he's taking on this thread because he's a tory boy? Would he be getting a better reception had he come from an estate or had authentic w/c credentials?
So what do you suggest then? Computer simulations aren't complex or accurate enough, and human testing at the stage animal testing is used (pre-clinical trial) is completely out of the question ethically (if you want to know more about that read up on medical ethics and the impact of Nazism and previous examples of testing on humans).
bollocks, she came across as a junior member of some pharma PR company whos had too much prozac for breakfast
made me laught when the voiceover said after her bit about the experiment with the rat (which shed given a name)
"after the experiment the subject was destroyed and incinerated"
btw ive known a lot of hardcore ar folk in my time and there are always about as full on vegan as you can get
Pingu
Credo
BEARBOT said:yes i think it makes sense that an animal rights protestor should be vegan or at least veggie..its just some folks on this thread they were dead against animal testing for medical research and yet they ate meat
seems a bit odd..
not necesarily; there is a clear distinction between eating meat as a means of survival - given that the human digestive system is designed to use meat, as opposed to experimenting on animals in order to extend life past its natural conclusion. In essence medical research is developing stuff to help extend life when if it were left to follow a natural path it would be ended or severely limited.
There is also an "unnesecary suffering" angle to take into consideration and many many other factors.
the problems with AR start when people start looking at it as a black and white issue with only two very polarised views seen as valid.
we all have differing degrees where we would draw the line with some people being seriously more hardcore than others. just like opinions on more or less every other part of life
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
No, we're natural omnivores, hence the two different sets of teeth.
lostexpectation
New Member
I understand what you are saying about the lower level, their personal and social effects wouldn't be the same, but I'm sure the lack of control and shaking, would be very prohibitating for any animal.kyser_soze said:
And in terms of surgeory even if one is given anaestetic one still suffers the injury inrelation to cutting and bleeding we just don't feel it at the time.
I love to see somebody do the bobsley the day after brain surgery.
So the eminient surgeon who's word one seems to be able not to question is lieing.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
chazegee said:I was talked round to it being a necessary evil.
But it's all about the quality of life though. I would like to see the monkeys kept in better conditions whilst alive, more foliage and stuff, less of this tiny cage shit.
Couldn't agree more
while the cages could have been worse they were far from adequate IMO
If these animals have to be sarfificed to give us so much, and I support testing fro medical reasons, then the very least we can do is to give them the most enriching, fun and rewarding environment possible
Scientists who are clever enough to devise tests where they train animals to climb into chairs and press a screen to gain rewards can also spend some time making the monkey's life as enjoyable as possible while it's alive by devising other fun things for the monkey to do.
A bigger cage, a few toys / enrichment and more ineraction isn't too much to ask
My take on the surgeon was that he's a good man who cares about people, is not interested in causing animals unneccessary pain, but who could care more about the animals. I think (could be wrong) that he's a Muslim and therefore believes that animals were placed on earth to benefit mankind.
What he achieved, in terms of medical progress, was admirable but IMO he should feel more grateful to the animals for their sacrifice and should moke more effort to make their lives better
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
kyser_soze said:
also we have eyes on the front of our faces, like other predators, to judge distance when hunting prey. herbivores have eyes on the sides of their heads to avoid predators
How many people object to animal testing for medical research but are on some kind of medication themselves, or have had family and friends who have received medical care that has been tested on animals.
Hypothetical question: if your child was ill but could be cured by a course of drugs and surgery that was first tried on animals, would you reject the medical care?
Hypothetical question: if your child was ill but could be cured by a course of drugs and surgery that was first tried on animals, would you reject the medical care?
Pingu
Credo
TommyCheesecake said:
you may actually be surprised to know that some of the more dedicated AR people would refuse such drugs. But like I said in an earlier post its not black and white. People seem to asume that if you are pro AR then you are automatically a vegan who only wears stuff knitted from natural yak yoghurt. Thats simply not true there are many people who believe in animal rights who hold more pragmatic views and eat at mcdonalds every now and then.
by assuming ALL AR types are yoghurt knitting fruitcakes you should also realy be thinking along the lines of anyone who doenst like coronation street should automatically not like any television progs.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
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