Angry Wimmin

[Lysistrata]

I enjoyed the programme and I think these women did a great deal to ease the lives and widen the roles of women today. The sixties are seen as such a progressive decade but they weren't for women - all those men preaching socialism and free love didn't want equality for women. Looking at attitudes to women in the seventies too it's quite astounding (see the current series "Life on Mars" which is no exaggeration). It needed women to stand up on their own and get their voices heard. Sometimes you have to shout very, very loud.

The section about "Spare Rib" was particularly interesting to me as I became a feminist and read the magazine in the early eighties. It really did disappear up its own politically correct arse but it had a lot of good stuff too.

L

 

[trashpony]

As someone who was there and involved (but in a fairly fluffy way it must be said) I think we did a lot of stuff which put women's issues on the agenda in a way it hadn't been previously. Having said that, some of it made me laugh and quite a lot of it made me cringe

I'd forgotten how very unforgiving a time it was too. I found it really interesting to be taken back to that time. What was sad was that so many women's voices were effectively silenced for daring to stand up to the consensus within the radical movement - there was no room for heterosexual women then (as some people have pointed out on this thread or perhaps on the other one).

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Still haven't watched this but it's on tape waiting for an appropriate moment - as I was only young when the 80s ended I'm looking quite forward to learning about something so significant which I've only really read little bits about.

I enjoyed the programme and I think these women did a great deal to ease the lives and widen the roles of women today. The sixties are seen as such a progressive decade but they weren't for women - all those men preaching socialism and free love didn't want equality for women. Looking at attitudes to women in the seventies too it's quite astounding (see the current series "Life on Mars" which is no exaggeration). It needed women to stand up on their own and get their voices heard. Sometimes you have to shout very, very loud.
L

OK, I'm not the most well read person on this subject I'll admit, but perhaps the lack of provision for women by socialists which you speak (or provision of women just by tacking them on the end rather than seperately exploring the specific areas women were oppressed in), and the failure of some feminists to consider the female working class goes back to how the forefront of each organisation was organised and run by specific groups of people (in this case, men and middle class women). It's not surprising really that these organisations reflected the needs primarily of this group, admittedly by exclusion rather than intentional desire to oppress. However, I don't think that means a movement is necessarily damned. Critique can help a movement realise what areas it is excluding and try and readdress the balance.

Just because some of the older style feminists were solely concerned with middle class women doesn't mean that the movement is necessarily useless for working class women now and in the future.

 

[Ryazan]

Still haven't watched this but it's on tape waiting for an appropriate moment - as I was only young when the 80s ended I'm looking quite forward to learning about something so significant which I've only really read little bits about.


OK, I'm not the most well read person on this subject I'll admit, but perhaps the lack of provision for women by socialists which you speak (or provision of women just by tacking them on the end rather than seperately exploring the specific areas women were oppressed in), and the failure of some feminists to consider the female working class goes back to how the forefront of each organisation was organised and run by specific groups of people (in this case, men and middle class women) . It's not surprising really that these organisations reflected the needs primarily of this group, admittedly by exclusion rather than intentional desire to oppress. However, I don't think that means a movement is necessarily damned. Critique can help a movement realise what areas it is excluding and try and readdress the balance.

Just because some of the older style feminists were solely concerned with middle class women doesn't mean that the movement is necessarily useless for working class women now and in the future.

There is no one movement, that is why I get pissed off with this homogenising of women's experiences. Apolitcal, ahistorical nonsense. The universiality of women's experience is a myth.

I am not a feminist, I can't be, I am a man, but I am pro-feminist, and the concerns of some (not all) early 20th century middle class feminists were in contradiction to the freedom of working class women. Forgive me if I am being narrow on this, and indeed I acknowledge class alliances were made and have been made, and are made, and don't try and see that as the point of my own criticism- otherwise how could Sylvia Pankhurst have been influential among the poor? But it was those women that were only seeking to gain legal rights and status within the confines of social reform beneficial to their class, and to just allow a trickle of freedom to come down over time to the majority of women (working class women) that have been criticised, not emancipatory views on women in the general sense. No wonder many sought solidarity, and rightly so, within the far from perfect routes of trade unionism and even far-left politics. Having to combat sexism and put their thoughts and demands within a male-dominated and sexist atmosphere even within organisations positive to their own class interests.


As James Conelly said- "the working man is a slave, the working woman is the slave of a slave".

 

[Louloubelle]

There is no one movement, that is why I get pissed off with this homogenising of women's experiences. Apolitcal, ahistorical nonsense. The universiality of women's experience is a myth.

of course it is
the universality of any group of people's experience is a myth including the universality of the working class experience. obviously

I am not a feminist, I can't be, I am a man,

I'm uncertain about this statement. I know men who consider themselves feminists who really do walk the walk, not just talk the talk and they've earned their right to define themselves as feminist IMO

but I am pro-feminist, and the concerns of some (not all) early 20th century middle class feminists were in contradiction to the freedom of working class women. Forgive me if I am being narrow on this, and indeed I acknowledge class alliances were made and have been made, and are made, and don't try and see that as the point of my own criticism- otherwise how could Sylvia Pankhurst have been influential among the poor? But it was those women that were only seeking to gain legal rights and status within the confines of social reform beneficial to their class, and to just allow a trickle of freedom to come down over time to the majority of women (working class women) that have been criticised, not emancipatory views on women in the general sense. No wonder many sought solidarity, and rightly so, within the far from perfect routes of trade unionism and even far-left politics. Having to combat sexism and put their thoughts and demands within a male-dominated and sexist atmosphere even within organisations positive to their own class interests.

I've tried to read this a few times and I keep feeling tired and lossing track. It feels like I'm back in the 80s at a meeting and someone is delivering a well rehearsed rant that sends everyone glass eyed and nodding off.

sorry, I'm not having a go but your posts have that effect on me, perhaps it's just your writing style or some flaw within my own mind.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

There is no one movement, that is why I get pissed off with this homogenising of women's experiences. Apolitcal, ahistorical nonsense. The universiality of women's experience is a myth.

I am not a feminist, I can't be, I am a man, but I am pro-feminist, and the concerns of some (not all) early 20th century middle class feminists were in contradiction to the freedom of working class women. Forgive me if I am being narrow on this, and indeed I acknowledge class alliances were made and have been made, and are made, and don't try and see that as the point of my own criticism- otherwise how could Sylvia Pankhurst have been influential among the poor? But it was those women that were only seeking to gain legal rights and status within the confines of social reform beneficial to their class, and to just allow a trickle of freedom to come down over time to the majority of women (working class women) that have been criticised, not emancipatory views on women in the general sense. No wonder many sought solidarity, and rightly so, within the far from perfect routes of trade unionism and even far-left politics. Having to combat sexism and put their thoughts and demands within a male-dominated and sexist atmosphere even within organisations positive to their own class interests.


As James Conelly said- "the working man is a slave, the working woman is the slave of a slave".

I know that you can't equate all women as having the same experiences, that sexism will differ according to other factors such as race, class, sexuality and disability etc, and that there has been a tradition of some middle class feminists primarily focusing on middle class women and ignoring the experience of working class women. On the other hand, by the way I see it the woman's movement has shifted substantial focus to before on DV, on the sex industry - these are oppressed women. In the case of the sex industry I'd guess that it is poorer women who are in most danger so those efforts do help a subsection of the female poor.

I do agree with you there is a fundemental difficulty with saying that someone respresents all women - tbh as much as representing the whole working class. But as Drag0n has posted there are theorists who do concentrate on smaller sections of female experiences. Just because a movement has had problems doesn't mean it can't have positives, and can't adapt to face it's problems. And from my understanding the problems with a universal idea of women's experience is seen as problematic by many feminists.

 

[Ryazan]

of course it is
the universality of any group of people's experience is a myth including the universality of the working class experience. obviously



I'm uncertain about this statement. I know men who consider themselves feminists who really do walk the walk, not just talk the talk and they've earned their right to define themselves as feminist IMO



I've tried to read this a few times and I keep feeling tired and lossing track. It feels like I'm back in the 80s at a meeting and someone is delivering a well rehearsed rant that sends everyone glass eyed and nodding off.

sorry, I'm not having a go but your posts have that effect on me, perhaps it's just your writing style or some flaw within my own mind.

My mother was a Communist, and the feminists I have met, including my college lecturer have added some interesting ideas as to my identifiying with class politics and women. I can't be a feminist, and these women agree with that. What is walking the walk? Sitting in a circle whinging, in some post-grad pseudo-intellectual fashion? Or workplace, community struggle? I don't consider you, as a woman, having an opinion that is important enough for me to take seriously really, you haven't responded except through perhpas the prism of your own class assumptions and unconcsious prejudice. Where did I say that working class experience is homogenous? I didn't. There is much division, and that is why people organise and educate themselves. Or is that below you? Did you miss the bit about sexism against women within labour struggles?

The history of women's struggle in this country is skewed to portray the efforts of the liberal middle classes.

 

[Louloubelle]

My mother was a Communist, and the feminists I have met, including my college lecturer have added some interesting ideas as to my identifiying with class politics and women. I can't be a feminist, and these women agree with that. What is walking the walk? Sitting in a circle whinging, in some post-grad pseudo-intellectual fashion? Or workplace, community struggle? I don't consider you, as a woman, having an opinion that is important enough for me to take seriously really, you haven't responded except through perhpas the prism of your own class assumptions and unconcsious prejudice. Where did I say that working class experience is homogenous? I didn't. There is much division, and that is why people organise and educate themselves. Or is that below you? Did you miss the bit about sexism against women within labour struggles?

The history of women's struggle in this country is skewed to portray the efforts of the liberal middle classes.

*yawns*
oh no you've gone and done it again

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[MysteryGuest]

My mother was a Communist, and the feminists I have met, including my college lecturer have added some interesting ideas as to my identifiying with class politics and women. I can't be a feminist, and these women agree with that. What is walking the walk? Sitting in a circle whinging, in some post-grad pseudo-intellectual fashion? Or workplace, community struggle? I don't consider you, as a woman, having an opinion that is important enough for me to take seriously really, you haven't responded except through perhpas the prism of your own class assumptions and unconcsious prejudice. Where did I say that working class experience is homogenous? I didn't. There is much division, and that is why people organise and educate themselves. Or is that below you? Did you miss the bit about sexism against women within labour struggles?

The history of women's struggle in this country is skewed to portray the efforts of the liberal middle classes.

 

[wtfftw]

There's loads of interesting reading on how class, race and gender interact and which to prioritise etc.

Multiple Jeopardy, Multiple Consciousness: The Context of a Black Feminist Ideology - Deborah King.
Ain’tIA Woman? Revisiting Intersectionality - Brah & Phoenix
Feminism and the challenge of racism: deviance or difference - Aziz

That's just some basics innit.

 

[pinkmonkey]

I really enjoyed the programme and could relate to it. I lived in a lesbian house share when I was a student and grew used to the constant - 'why don't you cut your hair?' nagging from my housemates.

 

[Ryazan]

There's loads of interesting reading on how class, race and gender interact and which to prioritise etc.

Multiple Jeopardy, Multiple Consciousness: The Context of a Black Feminist Ideology - Deborah King.
Ain’tIA Woman? Revisiting Intersectionality - Brah & Phoenix
Feminism and the challenge of racism: deviance or difference - Aziz

That's just some basics innit.

The yuppie flu eased a bit then?

Sojourner Truth baby.

 

[Ryazan]

*yawns*
oh no you've gone and done it again

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Unable to respond..... At least Laptop tried to blag Engels.

 

[wtfftw]

The yuppie flu eased a bit then?

Sojourner Truth baby.

I assume you know that calling it yuppie flu is highly offensive?

 

[Louloubelle]

My mother was a Communist, and the feminists I have met, including my college lecturer have added some interesting ideas as to my identifiying with class politics and women. I can't be a feminist, and these women agree with that. What is walking the walk? Sitting in a circle whinging, in some post-grad pseudo-intellectual fashion? Or workplace, community struggle? I don't consider you, as a woman, having an opinion that is important enough for me to take seriously really, you haven't responded except through perhpas the prism of your own class assumptions and unconcsious prejudice. Where did I say that working class experience is homogenous? I didn't. There is much division, and that is why people organise and educate themselves. Or is that below you? Did you miss the bit about sexism against women within labour struggles?

The history of women's struggle in this country is skewed to portray the efforts of the liberal middle classes.

Translation...

"As the adult survivor of being raised by a communist, and as someone with lots of feminist friends who disagree with you, and as you're a middle class liberal (well I think you are), I find what you said really offensive"


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Ryazan]

Okay LouLoubelle.

 

[revol68]

Loulobelle stop being a tit.

The simple fact is that feminism is dead.

 

[Ryazan]

She probably has two.

Feminism is dead, but working class oppression isn't.

 

[revol68]

She probably has two.

Feminism is dead, but working class oppression isn't.

no I don't mean all gender disourses can be reduced to class, just that feminism is a dead idea, it paints gender issues in a one dimensional manner that has ignored the experiance of men under patriarchial gender roles and reduces them to either compliant cheerleaders, silent observers or enemies to be fought.

 

[Ryazan]

no I don't mean all gender disourses can be reduced to class, just that feminism is a dead idea, it paints gender issues in a one dimensional manner that has ignored the experiance of men under patriarchial gender roles and reduces them to either compliant cheerleaders, silent observers or enemies to be fought.

I was referring to the kind of feminism that reinforces class oppression rather than challenges it. It depends on the kind of people you are talking about in reference to.

Class is everything to me though. My mother has rubbed off on me a little too much.

But that is not without experiences she has had, and I have had, being part of her family, through her low paid work and then benefit dependancy, experiences that aren't really in good comparison to more privileged women who take it upon themselves to homogenise women's experiences along gender only, instead of acknowledging their own roles of complicity in oppressing other women, and not helping to try and recognise the common bonds among men and women of the working class, and how they have been built upon to effect social change, no matter how imperfect.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

no I don't mean all gender disourses can be reduced to class, just that feminism is a dead idea, it paints gender issues in a one dimensional manner that has ignored the experiance of men under patriarchial gender roles and reduces them to either compliant cheerleaders, silent observers or enemies to be fought.

No, feminism to me ultimately points out where women have been oppressed, manipulated and excluded from history/the analysis of a situation. And while these things still happen I think there is a place for it.

Are you saying that women in general are completely equal in our society and in terms of power to men (in general)?

 

[Ryazan]

No, feminism to me ultimately points out where women have been oppressed, manipulated and excluded from history/the analysis of a situation. And while these things still happen I think there is a place for it.

Are you saying that women in general are completely equal in our society and in terms of power to men (in general)?

He isn't saying that, he is just against my stressing on class as being the important factor in bringing about social change.

 

[revol68]

No, feminism to me ultimately points out where women have been oppressed, manipulated and excluded from history/the analysis of a situation. And while these things still happen I think there is a place for it.

Are you saying that women in general are completely equal in our society and in terms of power to men (in general)?

no i'm saying that feminism is in adequate for grasping such inequalities and more importantly fails to address the dialetic nature of gender identity, it looks at things from this position of "woman", something that is a homogenous construct. There is no "woman", rather a mish mash of conflicting and complimentary discourses, likewise the same for "man".

 

[trashpony]

I was referring to the kind of feminism that reinforces class oppression rather than challenges it. It depends on the kind of people you are talking about in reference to.

Class is everything to me though. My mother has rubbed off on me a little too much.

But that is not without experiences she has had, and I have had, being part of her family, through her low paid work and then benefit dependancy, experiences that aren't really in good comparison to more privileged women who take it upon themselves to homogenise women's experiences along gender only, instead of acknowledging there own complicitness in oppressing other women, and not helping to try and recognise the common bonds among men and women of the working class, and how they have been built upon to effect social change, no matter how imperfect.

For many middle class women, getting involved in radical feminism entirely shifted their perspective to class issues and made them consider that in a way that they hadn't before. And in the 80s, there were massive efforts to recognise different women's different experiences which was largely why the entire movement became so fragmented.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

no i'm saying that feminism is in adequate for grasping such inequalities and more importantly fails to address the dialetic nature of gender identity, it looks at things from this position of "woman", something that is a homogenous construct. There is no "woman", rather a mish mash of conflicting and complimentary discourses, likewise the same for "man".

That I agree with. However, there are experiences which may happen to various women because they are women, or are more likely to happen to you if you're a woman. For example, being turned down for a job when you're of child bearing age because the employers don't want to pay maternity pay, being payed less on average than men, or being more likely to be trapped either at home unable to work because child care costs to much or the other way round.

I think it needs to be adapted but feminism is still potentially valid. And in some ways the generalisation does have merits, such as in the Psychology of Women which tries to place women in a discipline where traditionally they have been either ignored or pathologised. Note, this does not at any point mean that all women are considered to be the same.

 

[Ryazan]

For many middle class women, getting involved in radical feminism entirely shifted their perspective to class issues and made them consider that in a way that they hadn't before. And in the 80s, there were massive efforts to recognise different women's different experiences which was largely why the entire movement became so fragmented.

And a lot of working class women saw with their own perspectives, and from the realities and awareness of the comparisons of life between themselves and their better off "sisters" that building solidarity within their class was important, perhaps more so than with middle class people being concerned about what they had only abstracted from a safe distance.

Middle class women discover most women (working class women) are shat on!

Not having a personal pop at you, don't take it that way.

 

[trashpony]

And a lot of working class women saw with their own perspectives, and from the realities and awareness of the comparisons of life between themselves and their better off "sisters" that building solidarity within their class was important, perhaps more so than with middle class people being concerned about what they had only abstracted from a safe distance.

Middle class women discover most women (working class women) are shat on!

Not having a personal pop at you, don't take it that way.

I'm not I absolutely agree with you.

I think that it served a useful purpose at the time for two reasons: it gave working class women a voice: which they had been to some extent denied in the class struggle up until that point.

It also opened up the eyes of middle class women to the fact that however many ways they are discriminated against, it's different for working class women and there is no homogeneity of experience for women.

For both groups of women, there are some universal experiences and friendships were forged where they wouldn't have been otherwise and sharing those experiences was useful. It was a really empowering time for a lot of us.

Effectively it put women's issues firmly on the class agenda. Which can only be a good thing in my book.

 

[wtfftw]

The yuppie flu eased a bit then?

Sojourner Truth baby.

I assume you know that calling it yuppie flu is highly offensive?

-----------
Thanks for the response Ryazan.

I'm going to take my lead from this thread and remember that you're not worth talking to. However first, would you please not bring up my chronic condition which btw is called M.E not yuppie flu (are you being prejudiced in your choice of description considering your political leanings?) when it has absolutely no relevance. Or even, when I haven't brought it up as it's got fuck all to do with you.

 

[Ryazan]

No, you have tried to be smarmy, like you did on that other thread, and when you play with fire, you get burned....

Now, if you want to actually discuss anything in this thread seriously, then I would be willing to do that with you.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes - they'd all sit around watching someone give birth (whilst eating nibbles and having a few drinks)....and then fry the placenta up with some garlic!!

Isn't that like cannibalism?