Aneurin Bevan - the greatest British politician?

[rebel warrior]

As should the benefit of hindsight and the prevailing attitudes of the time.

Yes - only that there were people in Britain who were raising the Moscow Trials and organising to expose them as frauds and set ups at the time, and a Committee for the Defence of Leon Trotsky did attract quite a bit of attention (if not support). Had Bevan chosen to look into this enough he would have seen them for what they were, and then having seen them for what they were - could have spoken out. But he preferred to keep silent...

(its amazing being able to talk about this topic without Ern derailing discussion...)

 

[rebel warrior]

The NHS was one of the achievements of the 45-51 Labour government. Others include the end of the Raj, demobilisation, the implementation of Beveridge's cradle-to-grave welfare proposals and an extensive programme of nationalisation (the Bank of England, railways, coal, steel, gas and electricity, civil aviation, cable and wireless services & road transport).

Nominations for the greatest politician? How about the man who led that government? Clement Attlee, the best prime minister this country has had!

Clem Attlee - also strike breaking, support for US imperialism, and support for dictatorship in Greece and elsewhere - I can see why you like the guy JHE...

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj62/budd.htm

 

[editor]

Yes - only that there were people in Britain who were raising the Moscow Trials and organising to expose them as frauds and set ups at the time, and a Committee for the Defence of Leon Trotsky did attract quite a bit of attention (if not support). Had Bevan chosen to look into this enough he would have seen them for what they were, and then having seen them for what they were - could have spoken out. But he preferred to keep silent...

(its amazing being able to talk about this topic without Ern derailing discussion...)

Come on: you can't blame everything on the man!

No one's perfect, neither can politicians expect to have addressed every issue which may - or may not - proved to have been of importance and significance later, but I'm looking for an overall appraisal on the man's career.

There's no doubting that Bevan made mistakes and wasn't 100% consistent through every waking hour of his life - he's only human! - but surely he should be judged on his achievements that made real differences to people in a time where pursuing those goals involved real sacrifice, courage and risk.

(You're right about this debate being all the better for the lack of Ern, btw).

 

[nino_savatte]

if memory serves, it was more a backhander of some kind, wasn't it? although i forget the specific.

Indeed it was. Fox didn't get his nickname for nowt.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

The son of a Welsh miner, Trade unionist, campaigner for increased benefits, fighter of fascism, political activist, MP, the man responsible for the NHS and a man of principle who resigned from the government in protest against the introduction of charges for dental care.

Let's hear it for Nye Bevan!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bevan_aneurin.shtml
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TUbevan.htm

A great man who used the resources fit for him at the time, but never really looked at many long term plans. To hail him as the man who introduced the NHS is accurate, but to hail him as solely responsible (as many do) is not. In fact it is through Bevan's lack of prudence (and of those who he preceded) that many of the ideas set forward by Sir William Beveridge are, today, in trouble.

If anyone is to be given the mantle of greatest British Politician of all time it is Sir William Beveridge for his relentless dedication to fairness in a modern world.

 

[phildwyer]

FYI, Bevan used his influence with Beaverbrook to get Michael Foot a job on the Standard with Foot saying later, "My friendship with Nye was the most important in my life." Was that a bad thing then?

Actually, Footy is in the running for my favorite politician of the twentieth century, although he admittedly gives new meaning to the term "glorious failure." A brilliant and principled man, though, and still producing important books at 90-plus. His 2-volume biography of Bevan is a true classic, which should be compulsory reading for schoolchildren.

But anyway, on consideration, my vote for the greatest British politician of all time goes to John Milton. Foriegn Secretary in Oliver Cromwell's revolutionary government, he wrote the official justification for the execution of Charles I, and in a series of superb tracts he invented the theory of revolution that was to inspire the Jacobins and the Bolsheviks. In his spare time, he wrote Paradise Lost.

 

[phildwyer]

Indeed it was. Fox didn't get his nickname for nowt.

Fox was his real name. You are a fount of knoweldge on this as every other subject--I *don't* think.

 

[articul8]

high moral demands that bear no relation to the real world.

sorry, i just fail to see what is so unrealistic about wanting an MP to live on a workers' wage. It has been done before, and can be done again.

So fucking what if he was in Beaverbrook's social circle in his later years?

Oh, come on - are you telling me that someone on the (broadly conceived) left today - like Galloway - wouldn't be totally and utterly crucified if he was constantly associating with someone like Rupert Murdoch? And Beaverbrook's ten times worse

his papers, let us not forget, were publishing viciously anti-semitic bile, supporting Hitler as a bulwark against Bolshevism and flattering Oswald Mosely.

Bevan used his influence with Beaverbrook to get Michael Foot a job

So he gets his cronies a job through backhanded deals with semi-fascists. How laudable! FWIW, I've always thought that Michael Foot was a complete and utter waste of space anyway. Him, and the rest of the soft left like Barbara Castle, Peter Shore etc. - utterly bankrupt no hopers who failed to put up anything like a proper fight when they could and should have.

edit - PS:
RW's right about the conspicuous silence on the little matter of Stalinist persecution. And so what if I'm talking with hindsight - in hindsight, we have to revise our judgement somewhat.

 

[Red Faction]

So he gets his cronies a job through backhanded deals with semi-fascists. How laudable! FWIW, I've always thought that Michael Foot was a complete and utter waste of space anyway. Him, and Barbara Castle, utterly bankrupt no hopers who failed to put up anything like a proper fight

shame on you articul8!

 

[Combustible]

Bevan's abandonment of unilateral nuclear disarmament - howver he dressed it up - was objectively a shot in the arm for US imperialism and its allies, and a setback for global peace. This has to be balanced against his undoubted contribution in setting up the NHS.

Getting rid of nukes unilaterally would only serve to increase your reliance on the US and other nuclear allies. In the meantime before this utopian time comes in the future a certain degree of practicality is required and Bevan clearly saw this. He faced enormous problems when he took this stance, disillusioning a lot of allies and was not just a quick sell out of all his ideals.

 

[JimW]

Having a Trevor Griffiths phase, so just downloaded and watched his 'Food for Ravens' on Bevan, good stuff and a great turn as yer man by Brian Cox.

 

[frogwoman]

bloody hell articul8 wrote that?

 

[SpineyNorman]

well kind of - but then at the last election he was still phone canvassing for New Labour. In fact, by staying put in Labour, he has played an extremely negative role.

 

[articul8]

I'd forgotten all about this thread I don't dissent from most of what I said - except for the swipe above, natch. A bit ungenerous towards Nye, but the criticisms are valid ones.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Wow. This is an oldie.

 

[Wilf]

Wow. This is an oldie.

Aye, but I don't think our politicians have got any better in the intervening period.

 

[Belushi]

I miss the days when we had Swappie drones of the rebel warrior calibre to play with

 

[Balbi]

*dusts off thread*

No calls for Clegg? Almost single handedly returning the country to a two party chamber, having spectacularly grasped an opportunity and slung it into a pile of shit.

 

[mk12]

err...this would be Nye "Don't send me naked into the conference chamber", actually nukes aren't so bad now I've got a cushy job, Bevan.

He wasn't the worst, but greatest British politician? I nominate Sylvia Pankhurst.

Would you still?

 

[articul8]

I'm not sure she'd want to be called a "politician" - who would?

 

[butchersapron]

Her flirtation with nationalism and mysticism and aristoracy doesn't put you off her but Nye is cast into the darkness forever for his similar failings?

Tell me, were you still in your trot phase at this point? Were you still in the SP or had you yet joined the now pure (as it must be if your criticisms above are to hold any real weight, if they're not to be inconsistent rubbish) labour party?

 

[articul8]

No, I'd left already by this stage but didn't join Labour for another year - I didn't really have some road to Damascus (re)conversion - my views didn't and haven't changed altogether, though obviously I stopped tarring the Labour left with the New Labour brush. I went back in at the time of McDonnell's (first) leadership tilt [against Brown].

I wouldn't dismiss Nye quite so unreservedly now, but there are still clear limits to Bevanism and his later trajectory shows that all to well.

 

[trevhagl]

not Keir Hardie then no?

both turning in their graves at the antics (or should that be non antics) of the current lot

 

[youngian]

If by greatest you mean the most honestly earnest for the benefit of all, Nye Bevan is the top candidate. The NHS is very likely the most positive reform in the history of Britain to touch upon everyones life in such an important way.

As well a great inspiring orator he also has this towering policy acheivement which is what matters.
Always sceptical about admiring the eternal outsiders who 'stick to their principles' and never get to government and a position of power. It might mean getting your hands dirty and singing off a hymn sheet you don't always like but if you are serious in improving the lot of your fellow citizens, so what.

 

[articul8]

Having a Trevor Griffiths phase, so just downloaded and watched his 'Food for Ravens' on Bevan, good stuff and a great turn as yer man by Brian Cox.

Where d'ya get that? I'm a big fan of Trevor's stuff - met him once and he seemed like a nice bloke too.

 

[discokermit]

greatest politicians - king mob, captain swing, ned ludd, rebecca.

 

[Tobermory53]

Fne, that's all the z listers deat with, now what about Winston Churchill, Ted Heath and Alex Salmond?

 

[butchersapron]

Why have you crept back on here under this name after being banned cobbles?

 

[Tobermory53]

Who's cobbles? quit stalking, the record's broken........

 

[imposs1904]

Fne, that's all the z listers deat with, now what about Winston Churchill, Ted Heath and Alex Salmond?

Salmond?